Lesson 51d
Romans 12:3-8 · Courtney Hemenway · Apr 26, 2020
Romans (2018-21), No. 109
Holly Hills Bible Church
https://www.hollyhillsbiblechurch.org/teaching/messages/49261918361431

Transcribed from the recording by SermonAudio, so expect the occasional misheard word.

We are on lesson 51 of the Romans class. We are in Romans 12. And we got down to, well, and it's verses, Romans 12, verses 3 through 8. I'd like to start it again. I just like it for context. Let me read through it again real quick. Romans 12, 3 through 8.

For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think, but to think so as to have sound judgment. As God has allotted each a measure of faith, for just as we have many members in one body and all the members do not have the same function, so we, who are many, are in one body in Christ and individually members of one another. Since we have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, each of us is to exercise them accordingly. if prophecy according to the proportion of his faith, if service in his serving, or he who teaches in his teaching, or he who exhorts in his exhortation, he who gives with liberality, he who leads with diligence, he who shows mercy with cheerfulness.

So, we were down to question 7, I believe, and we had just gone over about Prophecy, let's see. So, the question on question seven is, what is the gift of prophecy and what is the gift today? So, a couple things came up after last week about some of the gifts.

I think Mike had mentioned, he said, well, you know, the gifts, you have to see the gifts, or you should see those demonstrated in the body. And I had a couple comments come back on that. Do all gifts have to be seen? That was one of the questions. I meant the signed gifts. Okay. So, well, I thought you were kind of saying like if you have the, you know, the gifts that are remaining, that they should be evident or seen. I thought was what you were, you had talked about because that was what a comment came back. Okay.

So, should they all be seen? I was thinking it's a gift of giving should definitely not be scenes. And that's something definitely between you and the Lord. And if you're giving and making big announcements of how much you're giving, that's not a good thing. Lots of gifts of service. People are there at the church and doing behind the scenes things all the time.

And I'm sure they would not want credit for that. I agree with that, Ingrid. I think that's right. So that was in response to that. I think the key is not so much that they're visible, but they're benefiting the body. Right. They all should edify the body, but they're not, they don't have to be visible. I think a lot of times too, and like the giving and some of those, those things that came up, you know, you don't want it focused on, you don't want to be, Oh, there's a guy who gave a lot of money or that's the person who, you know, is always doing or that, that it doesn't have to be a visible gift, but yes, Ellen, it has to be edifying to the body.

So that was one of the questions. I think Mike, you've mentioned that. So that was some of the response came up that they don't all have to be visible or out front like a teacher or a, you know, evangelist or something like that. Right. They can, they, they actually shouldn't be really seen or focused on. So that was just a follow up to last week.

And also, um, you know, we talked about, and one of the, one of the responses was, uh, uh, there's knowing your, there's knowing your gift give you peace. You know, we were talking about, do you need to know your gift? And one of the responses was, does it give you peace knowing that? Is it important for you to know your gift? I think I said in the case of a preacher, it is necessary to know that you have that gift. Yeah. That's two questions, Courtney. One is to know, and two is to have peace about it.

Well, it's, you know, I guess what was brought up, and it was somebody in one of these windows that brought it up, that basically said, you know, you can have rest if you know what your gift is, you have rest. If you're kind of always wondering, searching, is there kind of an unrest or something, you know, wondering about it. I kind of have mixed on that. that if you're focusing on the gift and trying to focus on what your gift is, I think it becomes more self-centered, and that it'll be a manifestation of Christ. It will be manifest. You don't have to look at it, but the thought was, if you know it, you have more peace, that I have the gift of X, and you rest in that fact and able to exercise it. So, a little bit on that.

Don't totally agree with that, but that was one of the comments. Well, you know, I would say that as you, and I don't want to open up a whole new discussion, but as you walk in the Spirit, Christ is the center of your focus, which is the great freedom from that is I'm freedom from me, free from me and all of the perils that would cause me to be self-centered.

Ephesians chapter 6, it tells us to put on the whole armor of God so we can withstand the darts of the devil. What's interesting is that the whole focus of what Satan and his boys try to do is to get you focused back in the world and back on yourself. That's the fight. So if you walk with the Lord and your focus is on Him, you're just focusing on serving and you don't care how it is. You don't care that the fact that you can do it, that He has even called us all to serve, the body and Him is an amazing thing to me.

Well, that was more my response. It's a life that's expressed. And gifts will come out as that life is expressed. Yeah. And, you know, just to search for your gift. And like I said, I brought up last time there used to be a bunch of I know years ago there were tests to see what your gifts were, you know, and all these things come out. Know what your gift was and I thought that was very self-centered that you know I was trying to find out what your gift was and it was all focused on you and all that So it was just brought up after last week that that was you know, one of those things I think it's if you're looking for it your your focus is wrong, you know, it'll be manifest as you know In fact, I think the hungry heart this morning and some of the ones recently have talked about that It's you know focusing on the Lord you'll manifest Christ which in that will be manifesting your gift.

So right and I was just going to add that the whole source of rest doesn't have anything to do with us or what we have been given as a gift, right? So our spiritual gifts are not a source of rest. And like you said, Mike, and Courtney both mentioned it. Once we're beholding the Lord, you know, that is where rest comes from. That's where an understanding of our gifts come from. And so it becomes simpler, and it's not a matter of, you know, a spiritual gifts test or an analysis of self, but rest comes from simply beholding the Lord and His Word, and that's where, you know, our spiritual gifts are made known as well. Yeah. That's good, J.D. Now, last follow-up question from last week was, are gifts and talents the same? No. No. Thank you. I was thinking about some of the ones like Eric and Vani, great talented piano players.

Is that a gift or a talent? Phil being the wizard of anything, remodeling, building, whatever. Is that a gift or a talent? There's definitely a talent aspect to that, but I will say that they can be combined, right? So there can be an element of service combined with a talent.

That's good. They don't have to be mutually exclusive. Right. I think the gift can be expressed through a talent is kind of the way I look at it. A talent is not necessarily a gift, but a talent can be expressed through the gift that that person has.

Yeah. You know, Phil is a good example of that because I can say this about it because he's not on this class. But right. I'm I'm worried about being not on your class. Right. Well, he you know, he'll come in and do something for you and there's no attitude with it. He's happy to serve, and he thinks about it, and he's careful, and it's actually kind of hard to pay him. It's like it's what he is, part of what he is, and he never peacocks about it, ever. Well, I think I think it's like the gift of helps yeah, you know he's he's that that's you know evident I think and through that he's just you know has that attitude and like what you just said You don't come in he'll do all this stuff and it's just the greatest of attitudes and all that so again just differences, you know between Talents and gifts like I said, I think I I a talent can be expressed through a person's gift. All right, now getting back to the fun topic, which is we've kind of gone on rabbit trails, but these were follow-up questions from last week.

So back to the definitions. The definition of prophecy was through Zodiates. I'll re-read those again. In the Greek, the word prophistia is defined as a prophetic rank or work, the office of a prophet or gift of prophecy. In Romans 12, 6, it is classed with a diaconia, ministry or serving, and didascalia, teaching as a charisma, the result of God's grace or divine enablement to be exercised within the church. And it also goes on to say in Romans 12, 6, by the use of the phrase According to the propitiation of faith, the apostle declares that a prophecy is required to agree with the accepted doctrines of the faith. So, the question, oh man, I just saw that this meeting will end in 10 minutes. Yeah, I just got that too. Let me, let me, oops, let me quickly do this here. just said all of a sudden unlimited time because you were involved in it.

I don't know why it's doing it this time. Yeah, we use zoom at work a lot. And as a basic user, the zoom only allows 40 minutes for a meeting. If you're a pro user, you can upgrade. Yeah, last last week, though, it went well beyond that. Yeah, it did. So that's what I don't know what the what the deal is here. Last week, all of a sudden, Bill's name popped up and it said, meeting extended to infinity or something. Bill's name popped up. Yeah, let me... To infinity and beyond. Yeah. Hold on, let me just see if I can get this real quick to extend. Because you have the membership, right? Yeah, I have the membership, so I've just got to extend it. So sorry about this.

Last week it didn't do that, which is kind of strange. And I was using the same account last week, which is very weird. I wonder if they changed something between last week and this week. They might have. But if you have an account, if you have an account, the meeting should go as long as you want. Yeah, I have an account.

So which is weird, but I'll just quickly doing the improvement here. Are you using the Huntington-Pectin method there on typing? You can see this, huh? That's kind of scary. Well, it's way above me. I have it way above here, so let me... Hopefully this won't kill the meeting, but... I wonder if the meeting's killed, if you can just resend an email thing, and we can just continue for another 40. Yeah. Worst case. Yeah, worst case. All right, I'll do that. So if we lose it, I'll resend the email real quick. All right, let's continue on.

So, prophecy and prophet. Is the gift of prophecy still here? In some sense, yes. I'm reading in Newell's book, and he says, in a lower case, there may be apostles and prophets in all ages. Barnabas is termed an apostle apostle Junius and Andronicus are called apostles And it is said of them that they were of note amongst the apostles so that there were others who are not named So that apostles of prophecy That's all that's apostles. Sorry.

Yep So thoughts on this one, but I imagined it's the same with prophecy, too Well If you look at the job description of a prophet, he was someone who represented God to the people. A priest was someone who represented the people to God. So all of the apostles had to be prophets because of all this new information from God that was coming into the church. So if prophecy is what a prophet does, As long as the information is from God to the body of Christ and it's something that hasn't been there before, I'd say yes. But once, like we said last week, once the scripture is completed, you don't need a prophet anymore because everything God wants you to know is in the scriptures.

That's true. The short answer is the prophecy is no longer. Yes. Yeah, I think so. Other thoughts? I agree with Mike there. I'm JD's friend from Canada. I texted with JD a little bit, something that he taught me years ago in the framework. I think it came from, I think he taught it.

Deuteronomy 13 and Deuteronomy 18 gives a test for prophets. And obviously that's Old Testament context, but Um, pretty kind of puts into context the standard of a profit and a hundred percent accuracy type of a life or death sort of thing. Well, you know, and the difference I tried to bring out last week too, is the gift of profit versus gift of prophecy, two different things. Well, wouldn't prophecy be the activity of a profit? Is there a gift of prophecy which does not necessarily mean that you are a prophet?

Or is that true? I guess that was my question. One thing that occurred to me this week, as I've been thinking about it, is there's definitely the function of a prophet in the Old Testament, and then there is the gift of prophecy. I think I mentioned last week that they were hand-in-hand. I think they're definitely related.

However, all gifts are meant to build up the body. The prophets were not focused on that. They had no body, no ecclesia, no concept of that in their mind. They were simply communicating to the House of Israel. The gift of prophecy, however, is meant to edify the body.

And so, while they're related, there is a difference there. And I'm not sure that I did due diligence on it to the degree that I should have. I think there's something interesting about the purpose of edification versus what the prophet's function was in the Old Testament. That's what I was trying to bring out, because I think there's a difference between a prophet, which I agree has to be, it's basically bringing forth the accurate message from God to the people. And prophecy is different, I think. And, you know, I'm looking up some of the gifts, the sign gifts that did go away, you know, the tongues which said, we'll see. It's interesting enough, it also said that knowledge will disappear too, which I kind of, in that same Corinthians passage. So, but I think it's different.

And the prophets were specific. And JD, I think you're exactly right. And that's some of the point is that the gifts were meant to edify the body. So prophecy is a gift to edify the body now. The reason why I brought that, this is one of the ones, I've long looked at this passage and it's kind of, is it still there, is it not, I don't know. But in Newell's book, It's kind of interesting, and see if you agree with this too. It says, prophets who were associated with the apostles as the foundation, because they revealed the mind of God may, it appears to me, in a subordinate sense be believed to exist. Those who not merely teach and explain ordinary and profitable doctrine, but who by a special energy of the spirit can unfold and communicate the mind of Christ to the church where it is ignorant of it. though that mind be treasured up in the Scripture, and bring truths, hidden previously from the knowledge of the Church, in the power of the testimony of the Spirit of God, to bear on the present circumstances of the Church and future prospects of the world, and thus practically prophets.

And now this is the paren. Though there be no new facts revealed, but are all really in the word already, and thus be a direct blessing and a gift to Christ, to the church for its emergency and need, though the word be strictly adhered to, but without which the church would not have had the power of that word. So what we're saying is that potentially, let's say we have the gift of teaching. And, you know, churches teach the same truths of Romans time and time again. And then potentially there's this functioning gift of prophecy that unveils something that was all there, but often overlooked. and made clear all of a sudden to a group of believers.

Nothing new, but something made clear that had been just brushed over for so many years. I don't know. Is that kind of what you're alluding to in that reading? Yeah, and unfortunately, like I said, we have one minute left. My thing is telling me one minute. So if we disappear, I'll quickly send the email back out. And just log back in. We'll join back in. But yeah, JD, that's exactly the thought. And when you think about it, it may be like identification. Many churches don't teach identification, but it's clearly there.

I think the key is, and I like what that what Newell had in his is that the prophecy is bringing out a truth that's already existing in the scripture. You're not adding anything. It's just you're revealing what's already there. The thought I had was more like the identification truths. been there for years, you know, reading the scripture, but never heard until really at Holly Hills, the identification truths, even though, you know, with the brethren that I was associated with and all that, they were the ones who brought it all out. So, you know, I, I guess that if that's what the gift of prophecy is, and I agree with it, that it's revealed truths that are already there.

You're not adding to the scripture at all, but you're, you're bringing forth to the body. And again, the purpose is to edify the body. So that's what you're doing. You're teaching them identification truths. You're bringing that truth that's in the scripture, but you're bringing that to light to people. So that's kind of, you know, when I got done with all this, it was kind of like, okay, I kind of agree with that.

Courtney, I think JD mentioned that that's basically the The ability to teach is not necessarily prophecy. Make things clear is just a special ability to teach. Jim, the only difference I would add to that is that I think it's coupled with teaching. It may not even be like, I think of like, you know, certain, and I hate to use the word, but I'm going to use it.

Certain theologians that have, maybe don't teach, but they find the scripture to be clearer in certain areas than other theologians have. And that theology that they bring forth, Let's call it premillennialism, or the mystery of the fullness of times, or identification truths like Miles Stamford. So they may not have the gift of teaching, but they are seeing the scripture for what the Lord intended it to be understood as. And then you have teachers that come along, and they may have gleaned that same information or truth from the Word of God, but they may lean on those theologians who are not teachers, but then they're able to unveil things that are true. scripturally there and present, but just haven't been taught and haven't been understood.

If we go back to like church history, you know, we look at Martin Luther, there were many things that he brought forth and taught. And maybe even if we're talking about the gift of prophecy, he was clear on, you know, the gospel of grace. But yet he didn't understand so many other areas of scripture. It took many centuries. of looking into God's Word.

And if we're looking at prophecy in that respect, I think they can be exclusive to one another, but they may be paired as well. You can say the same thing about John Darby. Yeah, totally. Because the identification truths in the English language were not there until John Darby.

So, was he a prophet? Well, not a prophet. Gift of prophecy. That's the difference. I don't think it's a prophet anymore. I don't think they're prophets anymore. There's no new revelation. I think the prophecy, if by the way Newell does it, it's basically revealing facts that are already there. So it's not a prophet. So I could say, Courtney, you've got the gift of teaching, but you're not a teacher. You could say he's got the gift of teaching, but he may not have the gift of prophecy.

And same for myself. Like, I may not be able to unveil, you know, specifically truths that have not been made known that are present, but maybe it's a gift of study. I don't know. I mean, I don't know how they're all tied together, but there are those that can study and see the truths of the word that they may not teach it, but they may share it. And another teacher may pick it up and say, hey, yeah, just like identification truths. I didn't discover that myself, but it's there. I see it now because you've showed it to me, and now I can teach it. Yeah, and I think that's right.

I think that's, you know, sometimes the prophecy lays it out and the teacher may build all the foundation around it and build the structure of that, you know, dig into it, do more, you know, where the one who points to it, the prophecy part of it, and then the teacher builds on it. And I don't, again, I don't think they're mutually exclusive. I think You know, you can be a teacher who brings out all these truths too, but I don't think a teacher has to necessarily have the gift of prophecy. So, anyways, you know, this is one, the verse when I was going over it, this is the one that had the most interest to me just because of, yeah, does it, you know, I don't believe prophets. There's no new revealed word. but a person can have a gift of prophecy. And it's, again, very specific in that there's no new revelation. It's all based on the scripture that is existing.

And again, the other point is that it's got to be to edify the body. Kind of like they're treasure hunters. They find the treasures and the teachers go and present the treasures that were found. And the treasures were there all along, but they found them.

Well, and in Newell's thing, it's for the need of the church at the time, which I think was kind of a good one, that the church may need something during these times that we're in. and looking to Scripture, and somebody who digs it out or something, and then the teacher builds upon that. The verse that I knew going on to this one was going to be a little interesting. I don't believe there are prophets. There's no new revealed word. It's done. But the prophecy, the way Newell explained it, I think was pretty good.

You're edifying the body through bringing out truths that are already existent and you bring it out to benefit the body of Christ. You know, Newell was quoting Garvey right there. Yeah. Darby, if you know Darby, Darby was, you know, brought it all out.

But then he went south on a bunch of things later. I mean, like the Clothes Brethren. You know, we came out of the Brethren Church, you know, Darby and all that. But then he went into the Clothes Brethren. You had to be, you know, part of the body. And if you couldn't, you couldn't take the Lord's Table. There were a lot of things that he went south on later.

So, you know. But Darby brought out a lot of the things that we teach now. Darby and J.B. Stoney and some of those. Those were guys who maybe had the gift of prophecy. They brought these things out that were in the scripture. As J.D. said, Martin Luther brought out things. Not all things right and all that, but he brought out scripture that was present for hundreds of years. You know, but never revealed. So, I think that's kind of where, you know, if I read this right and what Newell, it's in the scripture, it's just somebody bringing it out and revealing it to people.

So, but it's got to be consistent with the Word. Moving on so we can get going on this. Also, the verse said, does the verse say, also what does the verse say about somebody exercising the gift of prophecy? How should it be done? According to the standard of one's faith Standard Yeah, I have my in the NASB is according to the proportion of his faith So, you know that falls in with what we already learned in verse 3 as God allotted to each a measure of faith So to get the prophecy if you know, whatever it is, it's it's by the proportion of faith. That's allotted by God and So, again, it's by the measure of faith that God gives you is how you exercise that gift. So, at any rate, whatever it is, if it still exists and is there, it should be according to the individual's faith that they have.

Let's get on here so we can move on to question eight. What is the gift of exhortation? And is it the same as the gift of teaching? So from verse 6 and 7, since we have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, each of us is to exercise them accordingly, a prophecy according to the proportion of his faith, if service in his serving, or he who teaches in his teaching, or he who exhorts in his exhortation. So what does the gift of exhortation do? And don't use the word exhort in the definition. That's my penalty. You can't use the word in the definition. So now you're all limited. You know, there's an old joke. I can probably get it on everybody here. So what is a goatee? What is a goatee on a person? Most people can't do it. You all have to go like this. Everybody does. It's the... So... You can't explain it without going... What's that?

Tom said I was a person on the golf course. Yeah. A goatee comes from a goat. Like, if you look at a goat, you see the hair that comes from his chin. 99% of the people, if you ask them what a goatee is, they all go like this. They have to use this to go, well, it's the, you know, the beard on your chin. My point being is most people exhort. Well, it's to exhort.

What does that mean? Persuasion. There's an element of persuasion there, not in a negative sense, but in a deep spiritual sense. Okay. I was going to say encouraging persuasion. Encouraging, yeah. Okay, from Zodiaty, it's parakaleo, which from para means to the side of, and kaleo to call, to aid, to help, comfort, encourage. Translated to comfort, exhort, desire, or call for. So, going to the ultimate authority of Webster's Dictionary, it says, an act or instant of exhorting. Oh, no. Language. Now, the other is language intended to incite or encourage. Interesting. Incite or encourage. So, I think your definition is what you give. It's the encouragement or positive uplifting of somebody and empirically coming beside somebody and uplifting, caring, by the Greek definition of it. So, is exhortation the same as teaching?

I don't think so. No. It can be. It can be paired. Go ahead, J.D. No, I was just agreeing with you. It can be paired, but they're not one and the same. So what is the difference? A teacher can see and understand the wonders of the identification truth, but hasn't got the ability to apply them to the person who's listening or has a need, you know. It's kind of like the difference between Courtney and Mike. Oh yeah, so who's who? I'm going to let you guys fight that one out. I want to see what that one means, yeah. No, there's just a difference between...

A teacher can bring forth the truth. Exhortation has this idea of coming alongside with encouragement and just an ability to see the heart and know where the teaching needs to be applied in that person's life. Exhortation is, I think, quite a bit more personal than just the gift of teaching, at least in my understanding. I think you're right, J.D. I also think a person who has that gift probably has to, how do I say this, they can know those growth truths, but they've been in them long enough to realize that, well, Miles Stanford was the one guy that wrote and spoke about Time and how much time it took to grow spiritually and be conformed to the image of Christ that time the element is exhortation Because we live in a society where well, I've got the truth now now I own it and I'm gonna keep it and I'm moving forward now Wait a minute, you you know it but you may not own it and it may not be part of what your life is Where a guy like miles comes along and talks about how much time it takes to for the Spirit of God to conform you. That's exhortation, I think.

I like the way Newell put it, and I think it shows the distinction. Exhortation and teaching are two different things. And Newell put it this way, the gift of, and there's a great sentence in here, the gift of exhortation is distinct from that of teaching, though both may be found in the same person. So again, you can combine that, and I think that's what we're saying.

It could be a teacher who exhorts too. But exhortation is an appeal to the will, teaching to the mind. I thought that was pretty good. Exhortation is appeal to the will, teaching to the mind. Exhortation is a precious gift, invaluable. whereby the Holy Spirit directly persuades the hearing heart into obedience to the truth which it has heard. A true exhorter also must be walking the path he calls others to follow. Yeah, that's true. But I thought that was kind of exhortations appeal to the will and teaching to the mind. Yeah. And I think that was a pretty good distinction between the two.

So, although it does say, you know, a teacher can be an exhorter too. So, you know, with the word exhorting and coming beside somebody and uplifting and, you know, comforting or, you know, bringing the word to them and uplifting them. So, all right, number nine, who are the leaders and what does it mean to lead with diligence? Mike, you're not answering. It means you're not a slacker. So there's a difference on this. They're not like teachers or evangelists or people who exhort. It's a different type.

Those would be used in different bodies and all around. Those different gifts are used all around. The word here, at least with the way they were kind of, you know, expanding when I looked, searching it too, is the leaders were like elders and deacons. They were leaders at church. It was specific to a local body, typically. It wasn't like leader, you know, of the world or leaders of great areas. It was specific to the body.

So he's calling out to lead him with diligence. So what does a leader of a local body, how does he do it with diligence? First of all, he's the one that's diligent. He's the one that is always on the job, so to speak. I would maybe parallel this with some of the definitions of what it means to be a husband. is a leader of his family and he sets a direction, but he's also the one that protects them. And I think a leader in the body of Christ, part of his job is protecting the flock.

Oh, yeah. I think we have even more definition of that. We have the qualifications for an elder in 1 Timothy 5 and 1 Peter 5 also. And at 1 Peter 5, 2 through 3, Shepherd the flock of God among you, so that's the shepherding or the protection, exercising oversight, not under compulsion, but voluntarily, according to the will of God, and not for sordid gain, but with eagerness, nor yet as lording it over those allotted to your charge, but proving to be examples to the flock.

So I think that's the diligence. You lead it as an elder or a leader in the local body, That's for the elders, you know, and the deacons are almost the same qualifications. So I think that's the diligence. That's the framework that you work under as a leader. And the reference that he brings here is with diligence, this is how you do it. If you do this, you're leading with diligence. And I think the attitude and the demeanor is that of service. You know, that you're as a leader in whatever you're involved in, you're really serving them. It's the oversight not under compulsion.

It's something that the Holy Spirit brings up and the body recognizes in a person, to be an elder. If you're seeking the office, I think you're almost in the wrong focus. You'll be manifest, and you'll come up, and you will have that desire to love the body, to protect the body, to teach the body. All those different things will be manifest in you, and the body will recognize you as an elder. I think if you look in 1 Timothy, there's a phrase in there that says, if you seek the office. So I think the Lord has to put it into you to want to do it.

Although I think a lot of people sort of slide into the job, you know, you're the last one standing. Well, I think there's also the ones who just desire it for the wrong reasons. I think for power, you know, or to be the leader. I want to be the leader. I think this is where you get into some of that. Go ahead. Oh, sorry.

I was going to say, I think, A, you have to be, the gifts have to be present within a person for the office. And we're talking about a larger perspective, not just the office, but leadership in a larger sense. So both deacons and elders. So there's a gift that, uh-oh, Brian. There's the gifts that need to be present, but then there's this idea, and you mentioned the word diligence.

We may say Christian maturity, right, and the desire. And so where do those come from, and what are those? And what we want to distinguish between is these are not works. It's not an effort of diligence. It's not an effort of Christian maturity. It's quite simply the idea that you're gifted with these abilities, these gifts that edify the body, and you've beheld the Lord through his word to a degree that you are mature enough to take that role of leadership. And he's placed you there because of your leadership, because of the gifts that he's given you, and those are manifested as a result of of Christian maturity that's not your effort, but simply a maturity that comes from your time in the Word and your fellowship and knowledge of the Lord Jesus, right?

I think that and the one other aspect I would add to that is, again, the time element. how long it takes the Spirit of God to implement the cross in your life so that it's the, not I, but Christ's life, is the degree to which you're a servant. And I think any of these leadership type positions, that's really what they are, is service. And service is not about me, it's about them. And that's a very, it takes some, time and grade and experience and walking and all that goes into a Christian life.

That's why you shouldn't see a lot of really young people in the leadership in a body of believers. You need some guys and women in there who have been down the road with the Lord. to some degree and have been learning and growing the whole time. That's where it says in the qualification, lay hands on no one quickly. And I think it's, you know, even if somebody who has been with, you know, the Lord a long time coming into a new body, you don't lay hands on them, you know, because the flock has to know the leader and it'll become manifest.

So either by time in your spiritual maturity and or with a body, a local body. You have to know the local body. You can't shepherd. you can't be in the elders job and that with all the stuff that goes on you have to have a love for the body and that flock that you're overseeing you have to have a love that is sacrificial you're willing to give up everything for the body and you have to have somebody who knows the flock in order to do that so it's a time element too Ingrid's here the bell person is here but she has a question I can't hear her. Oh, hi.

I don't remember where the verse is, but it just talks about let no one look down on your youthfulness. So, I don't know. I don't think young guys should be not, I don't know, thought about as potential elders. I mean, old guys need to think of replacements, and they should be training the young guys to shepherd the flock. Well, what I had in mind is a young guy comes out of seminary, and he thinks he's ready to be an elder, and he's not.

Right. And I think that's, again, not laying hands on it too early. It doesn't mean that you have to be 80 years old. Right. It's somebody who is recognized, who is walking with the Lord, manifesting the Lord, knows the scripture. Because all those qualifications have to be, well, not That's what the qualifications are for an elder or a deacon. That has to be exhibited. That doesn't mean they have to be 80 years old. They can be 25 years old, 30 years old. And if they exhibit all those qualifications, and they know the body.

The one guy in the Old Testament that I think probably had those qualifications from the Lord, but from early on, was Joseph. This was a guy that, you know, made his brothers and his father and his grandfather and his great grandfather look like they were stumbling around and he was able to assume a leadership role in his 20s, no matter what circumstance God put him in. So I think that God blessed him for that because he was preserving the line to the Messiah. But he's a special, special guy.

But again, Ingrid's point is the fact that you don't have to be 80 years old to be an elder. It's the qualifications that are exhibited in whatever age group. If they're manifesting and knowing the flock and all that and the time with the body, then it doesn't mean you have to be 80 years old. In fact, it's better to have several. Oh, I disagree. It's time for the bell, but I'll make one more comment.

My dad wrote a book a number of years ago about the assemblies that we came from around the state of Colorado. And, you know, there's history of them. And so many of them died out because the old guys had not, either they would not give up control or they had not invested time training the young guys. And so, you know, that's how lots of churches died out.

I wouldn't say that's the case in Holly Hills at all, but, um, No, it's just something to think about. Ingrid, I think the person you were talking about is Paul was counseling Timothy, don't let anybody despise your youth. And I think Timothy was a very special man. But in addition to that, Paul counseled Timothy, keep a close watch on yourself and your teaching. Persist in this because by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers.

So when he's talking about diligence, I think part of that is making sure your doctrine is correct as an elder for what you're teaching. I'm sure we've all heard about people who straight away from the faith because they didn't keep due diligence in their doctrine.

Right. Oh, yeah, totally. I also want to just say that without our elders and some technical guys, we wouldn't be having a Zoom class. You guys have been going through a lot to make this happen so we could stay together. Well, bell ringer. But we have 30 seconds extra grace time. So I can get question 10 done quickly. Can you show mercy without cheerfulness? It'd be kind of hard. Thoughts? What about the concept of tough love? Yeah, I think you can. I think you can show mercy without cheerfulness. Yeah, I think so too.

Well, interesting the definition. You know what the Greek word is for it? What? Hilarious. Is that the same as cheer? Yep. I can laugh at some stuff and not be happy about it. The Greek definition for it is cheerfulness and gladness is mercy. It basically says, therefore, you are to show mercy with hilarity. That's hysterical. So, yeah, that kind of shocked me, too, because I thought, you know, mercy coming beside maybe, you know, thoughtful, careful, you know, very much. But the word mercy was hilarious. Interesting, just at the end. It was kind of like, wow. Any other thoughts?

I just wanted to mention that Michael Paula said he couldn't get in today. And I just want to make sure Bill can get him in for the next thing. Michael who? Paula. Mike Paula? He's on the list. I'll have to look at the list. I thought last week he was in. He was. Yeah, but somehow he was writing me saying he couldn't get into the class. I'll check the list again, but I thought I had it, because it got in last week.

I understand. Okay. Alrighty. Well, we will show mercy with hilarity and laughter and cheerfulness. All right, let's close real quick. Heavenly Father, we thank you. We thank you for this time. We thank you, again, just for your Word and what it means, and again, just the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that is the one that convinces us and convicts us of these truths. And again, just the thought that your finished Word is the guiding truth that we have to follow. And we just, again, thank you for just this time, even virtually meeting together. We pray that if it's your will, that we will be able to meet together face to face as soon as possible.

And again, we just rest in the fact that you're in control of all of this. You're a sovereign God. This is not unbeknownst to you. It's allowed by you. And again, the thought that, as we've seen in the end of Romans 8, that you have an eternal love for us that we can't be separated from.

So we just thank you for those truths that give us the peace, rest, and comfort that is brought out in your word, that we have in Christ in the very life that we have in him. So we just thank you for this time. We pray for Mike as he gives us message next meeting. We pray that everything technologically will go well. We pray for all these things in Jesus' name.