Lesson 58b
Romans 14:14-23 · Courtney Hemenway · Sep 6, 2020
Romans (2018-21), No. 128
Holly Hills Bible Church
https://www.hollyhillsbiblechurch.org/teaching/messages/4926192096174

Transcribed from the recording by SermonAudio, so expect the occasional misheard word.

We are in lesson 58. We're going over Romans chapter 14, verses 14 through 23. I won't read over those again, but I'd like for you to do that occasionally just to see for context uh... what we're just describing remember again how last week kind of saying how twelve twelve thirteen fourteen we've gone from wide now we're focusing down focusing down on the individual right now and this is to the believer and so the uh... the focus now is on again how we relate we've just gone through strong believers and weak believers we're now kind of good getting into another section where it's really kind of focusing even a little bit more on that about uh... just are judging things of meats and foods and different things like that, and how our reaction is to that. So I think we got part of question one done, which what comes first, knowledge of a truth or persuasion of a truth? So last week we got to the part that it's a persuasion.

Paul is convinced of this. So, uh so the question I had with this is Paul is so convinced of and what is he so convinced of and why? So, he's convinced because it's in the lord. Uh the statement in in verse fourteen says, I know and I'm convinced what in the lord that nothing is in clean in itself. So, secondly, he's convinced he's what his position is. So what is the second part? Why is he convinced? And it was really that nothing is unclean in itself.

And the Greek word here for unclean is koinon, which in general definition is something that is common. And Zodiates has it this way, defiled, common, unclean, to lie, common, or open to all, common or belonging to several, or of which several are partakers, unclean hands or meats, Again, that's what we're really dealing with here. Unconsecrated and therefore having no atoning efficacy, such as were common to other nations, but were avoided by the Jews as polluted or as state as polluted or unclean.

So in this context, the word speaks of ceremonial impurity, not of actual immorality. So this isn't addressing a broad spectrum of things that are unclean. This is really talking about ceremonial things, foods, days, festivals, all these kinds of things.

So, the context has to do with religious scruples regarding animal flesh and vegetarian diet with the keeping of one day against another in special observance. So again, this is very, it's focused down, it's really, it's not horrendously broad. He's been addressing this a little bit in the preceding verses, but now he's talking about uh... he's persuaded that there's nothing unclean or you know about this uh... foods and days and festivals and all that i found another one as as we were doing mine daily readings uh... paul also address this in first timothy four one through five and i read that But the spirit explicitly says that in later times, some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons by means of the hypocrisy of liars, seared in their own conscience. Again, what we're talking about is conscience. We'll get to that in later questions.

As with a branding iron, men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods, which God has created to be gratefully shared in gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth. For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is to be received with gratitude. For it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer. So again, Paul reemphasizes the fact about uncleanliness, about this meats and diets, and whether you don't observe a festival, a date, or the festivals that the Jews were trying to reimpose upon the believers. So this is all about Basically, he's saying, there's nothing unclean about these things.

Eat whatever you can. And wasn't it, I was saying, just thinking about that, Peter, when the animals came down and he was free to eat, I mean, he showed him that he was able to eat anything. Can you imagine how freaked you were about that, if you're Peter? You know, I haven't touched a pig in my entire life, and now I can have sausage, you know?

We take that for granted, but that's got to be just a complete mind blow for him. Suddenly, all these things that we have not touched, we can't even be in a household with it. We can't be in a Gentile's house because of this, and now suddenly, that's okay. We take that for granted, but that's got to be just totally well you know i can i i can understand it can't fathom it and so this is but this is what's going on now with believers who are trying to do that you guys are trying to bring this back to to the jews are made to the believers saying you know you're eating that that you know sausage for breakfast not good not good you know you didn't you didn't observe the uh... festival moves what's wrong with you so paul's addressing all those things right now in his in his uh... section right here it's about those type of things and none of that is unclean in god's eyes So going on to question two, what is Paul's attitude regarding one who has a conscious that may not be free from doubts?

So this is one of the first question, Mike had a few of the questions. And so I'm punting this one, not out of the entire questions, but I'm putting it down to I think question nine. So I'm not throwing this away, I will address this, Mike, but I thought it felt better at question nine. So Mike looks very distraught.

So question three, can we command our conscience to be free? So first question I always like when I get into these defined terms. So what is your conscience? Anybody? You all have one. I think it's something in our soul. Soul? Okay. Others? Like I said, you all have one. You better know what it is. The discernment of right and wrong. Okay. I think one of the definitions is that it's a mechanism within us that either accuses us or excuses us of our actions. Do you guys get that? Yeah, I would agree. I would agree with both Kathy and Mike on that one. It's that discernment of right and wrong that Romans 1 actually talks about.

Okay, so I go to the worldly aspect of it, Webster's Dictionary, and see what it says. It had a lot of actually definitions, and of course they violate my prime rule as using the word and the definition, which I never think is valid or correct. How do you describe something or try and do a definition when you use the word in it? So Webster's Dictionary for conscience.

The sense of consciousness of the moral goodness or blameworthiness of one's own conduct, intentions, or character together with a feeling of obligation to do right or be good. Second one is a faculty power or principle in joining good acts guided by conscience. The part of the superego in psychoanalysis that transmits commands and admonitions to the ego. That's a Freudian concept. Freud had a field day with that one, so. Second definition is conformity to what one considers to be correct, right, or morally good. Last one, sensitive regard for fairness or justice.

So do any of these sound valid for what we're dealing with? I think it's interesting because we're always talking about this, whether you're an unbeliever or a believer. It's a situation, or maybe not a situation, but it's a concept where God has created in us the ability to know Him. Even as an unbeliever, we can see his eternal power, his divine nature in creation and our conscious response to that. So it's a created part of who we are. To Russ's point, I'd have to think about whether it's soul or spirit and kind of try to figure out that delineation point, but it's definitely a part of who he made us as creatures created in his image that is able to discern right from wrong based on what Romans 1 says, kind of just to reiterate. Yeah, Romans 1, basically, everybody has the ability to understand that there's a God. You know, with the soul and the spirit, I'm kind of in that one, too. I think, you know, if it's the spirit, it's perfect. It's Christ.

So is that where we get the discernment, or is it the soul, which is... Well, no, and that's a good question, too. So I was referring to the human spirit as opposed to... because I think consciousness, or conscious, rather, is not dependent upon whether or not we know the Lord fully. I mean, it changes because once we have the Holy Spirit, We have a whole different kind of awareness of right and wrong, but in terms of saving knowledge and what is right and what is wrong at a base level, I think that we're born with that. based on religion. So I, you know, that's where I think I relate more to maybe what Russ is saying.

It's a soul thing. Because if it's a spirit, I mean, we have the Holy Spirit, that's our life now. And so I think the soul part, as you said, you said we're born with it. I think that's part of who you are, that conscience. And so I think that's more where I would probably lay is, you know, go to the soul part is where the conscience is. So, you know, but I understand what you're saying too, but I think it's kind of more the inherent part of you that is you, the soul, spirit, you know, soul, spirit, and body. And so obviously not the body, but spirit and soul.

So I would rest more, I think, with the soul. But I guess I think these definitions are accurate if your conscience is scripturally based. So that you've been persuaded, which comes to the next question. And part of the question that we're answering, can we command our conscience? Can we command it?

No. We have a distinct no. Any other yeses? Yes. Good! I got two cats in the arena right now. Good. Anyone else? I was reading in Newell's book, he says, but the conscience cannot be commanded. It must be persuaded by the blessed spirit in the Lord Jesus. And I agree with that. We have to be persuaded.

J.D.? ? That persuasion still requires a command of your decision, right? I just don't. What does that mean? I don't want to split hairs, but if you're persuaded by something, you still have to make a decision. Maybe I'm not understanding command in the way that you're referring to it, or maybe even how Newell is referring to it. Just being persuaded doesn't change your decision. I mean, you can be like, yeah, I agree with that, but I'm not going to do it. You still have to implement the concept that you've understood or persuaded by.

I think our consciousness is influenced by the Holy Spirit, not by ourselves. Well, and persuasion does come from the Holy Spirit for a believer, for sure. But I mean, we're talking about you know, a broader concept, I guess, and consciousness and yeah, I don't know.

I mean, I feel like you do ultimately have the ability to decide, which is what I'm equating to command. Yeah, I agree with that. Our mind, emotions, and will are controlled a lot by us, but I believe the Holy Spirit actually does the persuading of us. I agree with that, too. I have another question here. Did Adam, before he sinned, have a conscience? I believe he did. Yeah.

How could he have? There was no distinction between good and evil. Well, he was just, what was he? He wasn't good, he wasn't evil, what was he? He was innocent. He was innocent, yeah. Well, he was still making decisions, right? So he didn't have the knowledge of good and evil, but he did have knowledge of good. But he didn't make the decisions based on whether it was beneficial to him or not, or whether it was a good decision or a bad decision. He just looked at a camel and said, hey, that's a camel. I was gonna say a giraffe, but yeah How do we know that? Well, yeah, that's it. That's it.

That's an interesting point. You know, I'll have to be honest I haven't ever thought of that in that way, but he definitely was able to decide and rightly appropriate but It wasn't in the consideration of what would have been wrong. It was always in the light of what was good and according to his creator. So that's interesting. I don't know that I've ever thought of that that way. Well, I bring that up because once Adam and Eve sinned, now there is this mechanism built into them that gives them a right and wrong. Hi. Do you cut out here? Yeah, I think it froze up. Okay. Oh, JD. Yeah. Hey, Kathy.

You know what I was thinking about was, you know, when we first get saved, that we can't, like the next day, say, I command you to know everything, and that I understand everything perfectly. So, I don't know, maybe that's part of what we're talking about here, I don't know. Yeah, and if that's what we were suggesting with that question, then I would totally agree with you. We were not able to utilize our faculties in that way right out of the gate, with regards to being a new believer, for sure. I think we lost the teacher. We lost everybody. Okay, are we getting back here? We're back. Yeah, we have a little internet issues here. Okay, so I think Mike was about ready to respond. Donna asked me a question.

She said when Eve was presented with the apple, did she have a will to accept it or not accept it or eat it or not eat it? Answer, yeah. Was her conscience involved in that? I mean, when you read the scripture, it says that she looked at it, she thought it was a plus for her to make her wise, and it looked like it tasted pretty good, so she took some of it. And she believed the lies that were told to her. At that point, she was evaluating, and making a decision based on the circumstances in front of her.

But I don't think she had, it's interesting, I don't think she has another side of that that said to her, you probably shouldn't do this. No. But how about if he's, then Adam. Donna says, then Adam ate it. And he was told not to eat it. Yeah, and he was told specifically not to eat it.

Yes. I'll go ahead. Adam had his eyes wide open, he knew what he was doing. But Eve was deceived. Well, they were told not to eat the tree. So the other thing which I'm going to get to is what the whole question is. Can you command your conscience? I agree with Newell in this, that no, it needs to be persuaded. Remember, what did Satan do?

He persuaded her. It's the exact same thing that's going on here. She was persuaded by his argument. Nah, he just didn't want you to be as knowledgeable as he. So the conscience was persuaded. She made the decision based on the conscience being persuaded. So I think it was there.

I think there's a conscience. that is there, but what do you persuade it? If there's no knowledge, you're innocent, there's nothing in there to decide that, but you have the conscience. So once you get the knowledge, then your conscience can make the decision. I think there's another factor here too, and that is when you come to the Lord Jesus, you come with whatever conscience you have, and you have relied on that conscience most of your adult life, if you came as an adult.

I think over time, you become persuaded. Sure. And the convincing of the Holy Spirit, and then the feeling or the emotion. That's the persuasion. Yeah. Exactly. So again, I think you can't, JD, I don't think you can command your conscience. You have to be persuaded.

I can't just say, yeah, it's fine to shoot somebody. rummage or bible on the war for a thorough the bible on the floor whatever yeah i'm i'm i was going to say to myself yet i would not say that uh... you know me well enough i would i would be referring to commandment in that way what will not have it but what about for the bible on on the uh... the yeah well i i mean architecture terrapage out of the bible and they don't have a Yeah, so what I was saying, and I definitely don't want to be misunderstood here, but it's simply that once we understand, specifically as believers, we can command our conscious to believe something. That's what faith is, right? Here, we're presented with the saving knowledge of the Lord. Again, we make that decision, and it's non-meritorious work, but we do command our conscience to recognize what we believe is truth.

That's all I was trying to do. See, I think it's more semantics. Yeah, I think it is too. I honestly think we're in a semantical issue. Your commanding is persuading your conscience. I'm convincing myself that X. So I think it's somewhat of semantics that you're commanding. I think what Paul, you just can't command it here. The point being at the beginning of this verse, Paul says, I am persuaded. That's really the purpose of this, that you're persuaded. Eve was persuaded. We are persuaded.

But it's to the point where your conscience says okay i'm i'm settled here but it's being persuaded it's not yet can't just say i can go ahead and tear all my pages of the bible i feel good about it you know i can't just say that my my brain was not just feeling feeling good about it but are you are you ok yeah right now i'm not okay with that i think that you're not okay with the fact or a a page of your bible do you wouldn't be okay with that are you'd be sued to be carried now i wouldn't I just go after your Bible and start tearing it up. No. Revenge is the Lord's, not mine. Wait, okay, losing it here. No, just kidding.

I understand and I agree. I would say that our The point where we're at is persuasion is absolutely necessary. We need God's word in order to understand what is right and what is wrong, what is truth and what is false. And our conscience can respond to that.

And if I'm using the word command to decide, then that's what I mean. Otherwise, it's probably just a semantical discussion. I might add one thing there that we are persuaded through the word. the things that are of Christ and the things that are not of Christ, and that becomes the criteria. I may be free to do something, but because it's not of Christ, I'm not going to do it. That's a fair point, too. Yeah, I agree. Something that I think I picked up from Jeremy Thomas is he talks about the conscience as being something that's kind of programmed. I mean, you look at unbelievers and they still have a very strong conscience. It's only that their morals are basically backwards, right?

And yet the Bible still warns against violating the conscience because it's a tool that God wants to work properly. So, don't get in the habit of violating your conscience. you know, make sure that it's being programmed correctly through God's word. And then it's a very effective tool.

Well, it goes back to the point just sort of saying, and this Paul was persuaded, you know, I think it all goes to the persuasion that if you're a nonbeliever, your conscious doesn't allow you to believe what is true about the Lord. But as you're persuaded, the working of the Holy Spirit and individuals and exposure to the word, your conscience is ultimately for all of us. Our conscience is ultimately convinced, persuaded that it is true. So, yeah, I think an unbeliever just has a conscience that that has not been persuaded about the truth of Christ.

Well, and one other thing I might add, and I know that we are kind of we're laboring over this a bit. Just don't give me grief about going four weeks on a lesson then. I'm always gonna give you grief. I know. That's what I do with my friends. His conscience is free to do that. Go ahead, sorry. Sorry about that. Oh, I lost my train of thought. I'm so sorry. Sorry about that. I have a comment.

Is our conscious Does it rest with our old nature? Or does it rest in our new nature? Or is it both places? Or do we have two consciences? Because if you're in the flesh, it's like the old nature has a conscience. And it's just a thought. I disagree with Mike. I don't think it has a conscience. It has a nature. And a nature is different than a conscience.

And I think, Jim, I think the conscience rests with, and maybe this goes back to what Russ was talking about, I think it goes back to the soul. That's the thing that goes, that's, Body, soul, and spirit. You know, we have a new life and a new spirit. We have, you know, fleshly body, can't rest there. But I think the conscience, there's not two of them. It's with your soul. That's the identity of who you are. And I think there's just the one. The spirit is Holy Spirit. It's perfect. The body is flesh, has a nature that is contrary. So I think, personally, I mean, thinking about it, I think that's why maybe going back to the original is that I think the conscience resides in the soul. I agree.

Because that's where you ultimately make that decision about Christ. You're convinced. No, I think the soul makes a decision because one of the properties of the soul is your will. Yeah. the spirit influences your spirit, which influences your soul, and at some point, you agree. You're persuaded.

I'm persuaded, and so in terms of salvation, I believe in the person and work of the Lord Jesus. Well, I'm coming to that table with a conscience that has totally been educated and persuaded by the world system. So as I enter into Christ and begin to be transformed by the renewing of your mind, My mind is going to be changed about a lot of things and my conscience will begin to be changed as the mind learns things and the persuasion is going on. I think that describes spiritual growth as much as anything. Yeah, the soul is defined as mind, body and will. Conscience is a part of that. It carries along whether we're unsaved or unsaved, it's part of the mind, body and will.

Yeah, so Jim, to answer your question, I think what's going on in our lives as believers is not only is our mind being changed and we're being persuaded about things because of God's word, our will is also coming along and assenting to what we're learning and then that has a tremendous influence on my conscience and that persuasion of I'm convinced about things that I would not otherwise, outside of Christ, been convinced about.

You good with that, Jim? Yeah, sure. I guess the last thing I would say is that as a believer and going forward, your conscience becomes less and less of the tool that you rely on, and the Word of God and the Holy Spirit becomes more and more who you are and what you rely on. Yeah, and Jim, I think, Russell, you read this, but the conscience cannot be commanded.

It must be persuaded by the blessed spirit in the Lord Jesus. When one is consequently set free, his walk is not forced, but happy and natural. So again, I think I go, the semantics commanded. Persuasion, I think it's really from this verse that persuasion is the key thing, is that your conscience is persuaded, and then you make, out of your will, make those decisions. And I guess I just want to say from a semantical point, I do agree with what you guys are saying. Convinced, persuaded, it all comes from the Lord's word, right, initially. And then you have to make a decision of faith about it, to use your words. Yeah, that's right. Yep, yeah. So I don't want to be misunderstood there in the sense that I do agree. Well, I was just going to say one more quick thing after listening to all of this.

I've always looked at my conscience or conscience as a mechanism, in the simplest form, as a mechanism for kind of knowing right and wrong in terms of sin. And I just always have felt like it was God's way of instilling in us kind of a, you know, The knowledge of good and evil.

And I, you know, there's times, I think as unbelievers, we don't like our conscience. We don't like what it's telling about us, because it's convicting us. But if we didn't have that, we wouldn't know the difference between good and evil. And it's kind of like, we fight against our conscience sometimes, try to justify what we do as right, and we bury that conscience. Some people don't even really realize maybe they have a conscience, but they bury it so deeply, they don't want to be convicted. Anyway, that's what you confused me about, Courtney. I was going to say that exact same thing that Jimmy just said, is that it's that ability to bury what God has instilled in us, as in Romans 1.

It goes back to that same passage. I'm sorry I keep repeating it, but I used the jack-in-the-box analogy a lot of times with the kids is that it pops up and it convinces us of something. We're persuaded. But what we do is we shove it right back down and hold that jack-in-the-box as long as we can, and then we get used to that, and that becomes the norm.

We're no longer convinced or persuaded about what God has said is right and what is wrong. That's how the conscience works for both the believer and the unbeliever, the unbeliever for salvation and the believer for the things of who he or she is in Christ. The conscious works to either accept what is right or reject what is wrong by holding it down.

There's a suppression there. Yeah, one of the things getting back to, gee, it's a horrible thing getting back to the scripture. It says, you know, that he has persuaded what? Let me get back to the verse here. I am persuaded... In the Lord Jesus. In the Lord Jesus. I want to say I know and am convinced, what? In the Lord Jesus. That's the key. It's the persuasion, it's the Holy Spirit, it's the Holy Spirit convicting, you know, making your, you know, convincing your conscience of this truth. So it's all about in the Lord, that's the key. Know and convince. You know what's critical about that? In the garden was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and you need a conscience for that, but there's also the other tree, which is the tree of life, there's no contrast, there's just life. It's life, yep, good point.

We'll end on that. So we have gotten halfway through the second question. JD, JD, well, we said we skipped the second set. I mean, so we're but we're only on the second question. So JD, it's my fault. No comments when we go five weeks on this lesson. It's Donna's fault. Yeah, Donna. Bad Donna. It was a good discussion. I want to get to the last verse in this section, which I think is one that's been misused or misinterpreted and all that. So I want to get down. So we're probably five weeks. I think just the last one will take a whole session. So anyway, let's close. We are way over, Brian.

I am so sorry for being late. all right let's pray every father we thank you we thank you for this time we thank you again just for the fellowship we have around your word and what that means and just the uh... the comfort we have knowing that you have left us with your word and the indwelling of the holy spirit and uh... uh... again just the uh... convincing of the holy spirit of your the truths that you have for us it's what's true about us and uh... again that We pray that we are heavenly minded people. And again, we just thank you for this time as we explore your word. We pray for Mike in the next meeting just to give the message and again, just that everything we say and do this day will honor and glorify you. And it's in Jesus name we pray. Amen.