1-3 John - 1st John 4:17-19 - God is Love - part 1
1 John 4:17-19 · Bob Eckel · Aug 21, 2011
1, 2 & 3 John, No. 34
Holly Hills Bible Church
https://www.hollyhillsbiblechurch.org/teaching/messages/4926244113469

Transcribed from the recording by SermonAudio, so expect the occasional misheard word.

Let's look at the passage that proceeds today. We're getting near the end of 1 John 4 and we're going to deal with verses 17 through 19 in more detail today. So let's look at verses 11 through 21. Roy, could you read that please for us? Sure. And loudly, if you could. I'm going to come over with a mic close to you so we can capture some of this.

Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another. No man has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. By this know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit. And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God. We have known and believe the love that God hath to us. God is love. He that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment, because as He is, so are we in this world. There is no fear in love, but perfect love casteth out fear, because fear hath punishment feareth is not made perfect in love. We love him because he first loved us.

If a man says, I love God and hates his brother, he is a liar. For he that loveth not his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen? And this commandment have we from him, that he who loveth God love his brother also. How many times has the word love been used in this in 10 verses? A lot.

All right, so let's now focus in on 17 through 19. It says in verse 17 that herein love has been perfected among us in this, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment, because as He is, so are we in this world. kind of a complicated verse, you know, partitioned by a colon and a semicolon, various thoughts compound on what precedes it. So as we delve into the verse, let's just begin where in the verse starts. What does herein love has been perfected in us mean?

Good morning. So those of you who don't know, that's our son Peter. So he's in from Louisiana. I'm not sure which attracted him more, the family or the bicycle racing. I'll let him speak to that later. Morning, Gary. Okay, so here in love has been perfected among us. What does it mean here in love has been perfected in us?

Well, Does it relate to the previous verse? And this is really, I think, relevant in terms of the interpretation. So what does the previous verse say? The previous verse says, and we have known and believed the love that God has for us. God is love and he who abides in love abides in God and God in him.

So, my question to the class, is this conditional? In fact, in verse 7, verse 15 and verse 7 seem to build on each other, but 7 preceded 15, but it's almost like they have parallel thoughts. One takes place at the moment of salvation, and the other seems to coordinate with it. Do you want to read the verse you're referring to?

Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God, and everyone that loveth is born of God and knoweth God. Other thoughts about the question, is this conditional? Herein love has been perfected among us in this. And then it carries on as to what that perfection looks like. Yes. I would think it's not conditional. I would think that us as believers, therefore I like that. You know, if you read the commentaries here, Roy, this is what I was referring to at Friday night Bible study. Today is a study of verb tense. And in the three verses we're going to cover today, verb tense has everything to do with the interpretation. This verse is interpreted by many commentators as conditional. How are you doing at loving one another? But that's not the verb tense.

The verb tense is perfect passive indicative. So what is perfect passive indicative? Perfect is better translated, having been made full or complete, and to steal the definition from one source, the perfect tense in Greek corresponds to the perfect tense in English. and describes an action which is viewed as having been completed in the past once and for all, not needing to be repeated. And as Roy mentioned on Friday night, this perfect tense has implications for future activity based on an act that's already been accomplished.

So, back to the verse. Herein is love, that it's been perfected among us in this. Let's continue. I'm going to set the stage for the future discussions. How does this first tense relate to the first half of this verse? Pat, I think you said it. Say it again. It's been accomplished.

So, love has been perfected among us in this, and that's just an amplification, meaning what is the purpose of this love having been accomplished? What of many? Right? Alright, so the next question to the class is, having been perfected dependent on our love, our underline? No, it's passive, so it was done to us. Okay, passive, we're the recipients of this.

Perfect, it's been done once and indicative, what's indicative mean? It's a fact. It's a fact. What does indicative mean? It's factual. It's a done deal. It's true and factual. It's not subjunctive, which we're going to come back to in a few minutes because there's some subjunctive verb tense that we're going to have to deal with here. The next question for you is then how should this statement make us feel? That love has been perfected in us. Jack, how does it make you feel?

At peace. Okay. Complete. Secure. Loved. Confident. I like that. Confident. Bold. Yeah, bold is going to follow. We're going to define that in more detail in a second. Doesn't this lift you up and give you a reason to believe that you're very specially endowed with that new nature?

It's conditional to the extent that we believe that we've been transformed and are being conformed in the nature of the Lord Jesus Christ. But it's faith. It's faith in believing what He's revealed. Remember, faith is always believing what God has revealed. And he said right here, we've been perfected. We've had this love perfected among us or in us. Why do commentators interpret this as condition?

How are you doing it, this love, by the way? Because they don't understand identification. I mean, the harder we try to love, the further we fall short in the old nature, right? It just doesn't make it. And once you rest and trust and believe that this statement is true, then that love begins to extend through us, doesn't it?

Okay, good. Good responses. Then the next question is what we just kind of touched on. How should we then respond? I mean, I think the adjectives we use for how does this make us feel really reflects on how we respond in confidence and trust that it's him working through us that that perfect love is in fact expressed. Thoughts? Questions? I think that when we do respond with in our hearts and our minds with the confidence, with the peace, with all of those adjectives that we use, I think that's when that love then is revealed to the world. Because that's when we're walking in the Spirit and that's what they see. Right. Thanks Nancy. Have you tried to love more? Harder? Be more persistent at it? Alright, now what's the purpose of this love being perfected in us? Well, the verse. Notice I didn't ask you to turn off your cell phones.

Can you picture this having boldness in the day of judgment? When I think of boldness, we'll come back to boldness in a second, we'll deal with judgment first. What kind of judgment is this? I came up with three possibilities and this really relates to our Bible study Friday night again, doesn't it? Gail, Roy, Margaret. What judgment?

Here on earth, following our rapture, or at the great white throne? I got verses to support all three. Let's look at the verses first and then we'll discuss it. By the way, this is John's only use of the phrase, Day of Judgment. Just kind of parenthetically interesting. There are three options. And Roy, Gail, Margaret, I'll turn back to the verse on Friday night.

In 1 Peter 4, 17, it says, For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God. And if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God? I'm going to suggest that that's judgment here on earth, judgment of the body.

Second option, 1 John 2.28, Now little children abide in him, that when he appears we may have confidence or boldness, and not be ashamed before him that is coming.

And I put in parenthesis, this is kind of the reward issue. Remember, rewards aren't white, red, and blue ribbons here. Rewards we don't completely understand, but they probably reflect in some way our relationship to the Lord Jesus Christ in terms of, you know, epigenosis and genosis knowledge and those rewards. I like what Mike says here. Everybody's going to be satisfied, but those rewards are going to be appropriately given by ways we don't completely understand.

OK, so that's the rapture kind of approaching with boldness. Remember, At the rapture, when we stand before God at His judgment seat at the church, ultimately, we're all okay. We're standing before Him in confidence and in boldness that Christ, in fact, is our mediator.

Tom? It's really a positive spin on it when you look at, behold, I'm coming and my reward is with me. It's not like He's coming at you and He's going to hit you on the head with a hammer when you come to be in His presence. Nope. Ain't that way, folks? It's really true. Isn't that great? We approach the throne of grace with boldness. Okay, now let's look at the third option, which is the great white throne judgment.

But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved, this is in 2 Peter 3.7, by the same word are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. Which judgment is John talking about here, do you think? Day of judgment.

We're going to be able to approach this boldly? What do you think? Is this the judgment of the believer who falls short of God's glory here walking in the earthly paths we walk each day? Or is this rapture related in terms of ultimately the judgment seat? Which is really...

He says almost the same thing in 1 John 2.28. Do we in fact exist at the Great White Throne Judgment? Some people call us spectators.

I don't even want to be a spectator at the Great White Throne Judgment. I don't know about you. No, I don't think in any way it relates to number three. This is not related to the church or the believer. Could it relate to one, the judgment here as we walk our daily paths of the believer who falls short?

Are we approaching that with boldness? It doesn't have to be number two. Does it disrupt your belief? Nancy, you have a thought? It's just that really our confidence is in Him. It doesn't matter which kind of judgment you're talking about. We won't be at the Great White Throne. Correct. But the other two, our confidence is in Him, so it doesn't matter what the judgment is.

And there's the boldness we get, right? Which follows the fact that we've been perfected in His love. Okay, good. Now, that we may have is present active subjunctive. Let's go back to the verse itself. So herein love has been perfected among us in this, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment, which is almost certainly rapture related, because as he is, so are we in this world. Okay, that we may have as present active subjunctive. Let me go back here a second.

We didn't deal with boldness. I forgot about that. So boldness, we kind of defined already as confidence, all outspokenness, frankness, bluntness, publicity, and by implication assurance. So those are all Strong's other definitions of the term boldness.

This is anything but a passive participant in this judgment. We are standing there boldly on the basis of the Lord Jesus Christ and everything he's done and who he is and being founded in him. Does this give us some idea as to which judgment is forthcoming? We kind of dealt with that.

Okay, so now back to the rest of the verse. Only at that time of judgment No, we're looking now is as he is so are we now in this world and here we're dealing with present indicative. which is both is and are, or present tense, and they're indicative, which means now and truthful. So let's first look at the verse again. So because as he is, so are we in this world. So we're talking about the fact that the love that's been made perfect is factual, it's perfect tense, meaning it's been done, and we're recipients. But now Because the walk now is really as he is and so are we.

So ultimately we're looking at present tense application. So is this positional and or conditional? The present tense use of as he is, so are we in this world. What's that, Jack? It's positional. Well, it's got some position, but I think it's conditioned too, isn't it? I mean, we are in this world of Him, that's positional truth, but yet our walk is conditional based on our faith, right?

So, here we are now, we have two natures. Before God, we're righteous. He hath made Him who knew no righteousness to be made sin for us that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him, right? Okay, so we have His righteousness, positional truth. As He is, so are we, positional. but yet the walk is still conditional, based on faith.

Everybody okay with that? Ephesians 2 section raises up together and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ as the positional aspects of this, but our walk here reflects on our active faith in the fact that we are new creations in Christ Jesus. Alright, let's go ahead now to verse 18. Verse 18 highly quoted, verse 19 highly quoted. So let's take a look at this.

There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. That he who fears has not been made perfect in love. Now see, this is the extension of the conditional nature. We as believers can still have fear, but that's not consistent with love.

So where's that fear come from? Exactly. We're going to get to that here in a second. But the fear is self-sourced, is it not? Except the fear of God. And again, we're going to look at this in more detail. I kind of equated fear and perfect love as like oil and water. Right? That's what kind of the verse says. There's no fear and love. And perfect love casts out fear. These can't coexist. This aspect of fear and love.

Cast out present active indicative. Meaning? Present tense, when? Now. Active? It's happening. So what's, who's active here? Well, we are, but what's the verse say? What casts out fear? Perfect love. Okay, is that again us working on it? No, I think the fact that in Christ there's no room for fear. It's inconsistent with the new nature in which we've been created. Indicative, true.

Is fear always self-centered? Question, class. And is this fear only of the judgment? Well, the verse follows the judgment that we can be bold at the time of the judgment, so is this fear related only to that? Or is it in fact other forms of fear that can enter into the life of a believer? There's all kinds of fear. Fear of death.

Is this perhaps of death? I didn't tell her to say that. It's a problem giving the handout. Is it of death? We don't have to go look at this, but Hebrews, well let's do a look at it. Hebrews 2, 14, 15. Whoever has it, read it please. For as much then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same, and through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is the devil. subject to bondage. Okay, rich verses. I love 214 because it really, again, I've referred to this many times in the past, but the idea that the act of Calvary is official and once only and a done deal.

Satan before God has been taken care of. In terms of this earthly existence that we have here and the ungodly, Satan's still alive and well. But before God and in Christ, we in fact have no power of Satan in our lives. But then the reason I went to these verses is because we're not only delivered from him and his power based on the cross, but in fact the fear of death is eliminated.

I always kind of think of the three tenses of the verb, being saved, I was saved, I'm being saved, I will be saved. One in three are easy, aren't they? I mean, most people have assurance of their salvation once they're saved. Very biblical. And this fear of death being eliminated, we have eternal life with him. It's that second part that's the tough part, right? This being saved. This constant day-to-day walk that we all have. Living by faith that we actually are righteous before God. Because we often get reminded that we're not. But that is not where Scripture has us, for sure. Okay, it's not just these two things. Then why at times do we still have fear? Well, fear involves bondage and ultimately does have to do with torment. What do some of the other versions say other than torment?

What do you have there? Punishment. I have that listed there. Do you have judgment there too? Does anybody have judgment in their version? Okay, apparently judgment can also be used, so this kind of fear of judgment in terms of the boldness that we approach this judgment is potentially another interpretation.

Romans 8 to 8.15, for you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear. but you receive the spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, Abba, Father." So here Paul also addresses fear and that fear relates to bondage or judgment. That's what it does. We're called away from that.

Second Timothy 1.7, For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind. So here again, fear seeming to source from a nature that is not of the Lord, but the sinful nature.

So how do you interpret perfect love casts out fear? Perfect love, I think, represents Christ. He's the only one that is capable of perfect love. And so, faith in Him can cast out fear, does cast out fear. Because when you focus on him, that fear is gone. Okay, any kind of fear. Any kind of fear. I mean, I think bondage can represent anything. It can be drugs, it can be... I mean, anything that takes over your life and is sin is bondage. Anything. It's not just death or punishment. You feel me? Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. I think that love is perfected as we know him better. And that takes time.

And so with each flight, for instance, I hate flying. And I'm faced with this every time I have to fly, which is coming up again soon. An unspoken prayer request. About two weeks from now. And so about this far away I start thinking about, gee, you know, this could happen and that could happen.

And I have to, and the only way to get past that is to focus on him. But each time I go, then I have the opportunity to learn more about him in that particular type of environment or that particular fear. I may have a fear about some other things that I haven't. My love for him, my understanding and appreciation of him hasn't grown enough in that area. But the flying is what I'm dealing with at the moment. But I also have a question. Okay, and I have a question for the class to build on what you just said. Go ahead. Okay. These are all kind of like you said self, related to self.

What about having a fear like for someone you love very much whether they're going to believe or not and they haven't? and so consequently they're messing up their life. I think that ties in a little bit to where I'm going here because the next comment I was going to raise about fear is godly fear of offending God is quite distinct from a fear of bondage that puts us in a position of consciously deserving punishment. Now God says God we're to respond to fearfully. I mean but many people interpret that as kind of A righteous honor that he deserves and you know, we approach God with fear and trembling. I mean, is that self-centered fear?

I would suggest that the type of fear you're expressing is a deep Christ-centered concern, and fear is maybe not the best term for that. I mean, what do other people think? The fear of a friend or relative who's unsaved in terms of their ultimate fate. Am I paraphrasing that okay? Is that a self-centered fear? Gary, what are your thoughts? Maybe a definite concern for that person, but not a fear.

I don't know. I like this comment that they make here on the word punishment because they're half punishment and punishment is torment and I can tell you torment can be a very powerful And if we equate torment with punishment or judgment, ultimately then that fear is self-serving because Christ says that it's a done deal. Punishment, judgment is done. Christ was judged and we're in him.

But this godly fear, is that the same kind of fear that in fact we're talking about in terms of related earthly, you know, fears that we have. By the way, what casts out fear? We say perfect love does, but how does perfect love manifest itself in our day to day walk when we're fearful of something? Tom? When we look at our limitations, we want to get fearful, but if we look at how What else, and that's absolutely correct, what else though really gives us a rest in terms of these earthly circumstances? I'm not saying we're all there all the time, we're not, because we do have fears that come up. That fear is not a punishment though, right?

These fears ultimately are self-serving. Perfect love casts it up and that's all Christ, but what else is so important in terms of these earthly experiences that cause fear in us? Isn't it citizenship? My citizenship is in heaven, not here. And we look at things from above.

Colossians 3.1, seek those things that are above, not on earth.

That's where, in fact, we get that peace and rest and where fear is totally cast out. It's looking down, isn't it? Isn't it total identification and position by which our faith really casts out fear? That's how perfect love casts out fear, when we see ourselves totally in eternal places and where we're positioned.

And that ultimately, hopefully, could be transformed to our condition. Again, we don't all have this doubt. That's growth and grace is what it is. We talked about this Friday night too a little bit, but whenever we face trials and tribulations, we're combatting first Peter, or in fact, we have fears. Ultimately, I personally began at reminding myself of my citizenship. And that at least gives me a transient uplifting. And how long it lasts depends on my active faith. But citizenship, something we have to continually think about and believe in. Okay, so godly fear offending God. Yeah. Pat, yeah. Just another point on perfect love. A couple of weeks ago we talked about the world's love. love is, what do I get out of it? And there would be fear, well, I'm going to get cheated. Whereas in perfect love, God's love, you're not trying to get anything out of it and can rest in that. The term, you know, unequivocal, it's not dependent on anything, right? That's not something, again, we work at, it's something we believe in. Good comment.

So this godly fear or approach God with fear and trembling I think is a different kind of nature. The fear there isn't a punishment. It really is an ultimate respect for God and who he is. I think that term needs to be carefully defined in that circumstance. And I would say this approaching with fear and trembling is one that's spirit led. not earthly fear about our circumstances, but in fact approaching Him with fear and trembling is Holy Spirit-led in terms of identifying God, the Lord Jesus Christ, as to who they really are. And I've stated here, if we understand by love that we are in God and God is in us, and that we are sons and we know God, then only peace and solitude should follow. There's a tremendous rest here. And fear should not be existed.

But, I mean, can you think, when was, was Christ ever fearful? And I can only remember one time. Tom, what were your thoughts? And was that fear self-serving? No, just acknowledge that he's 100% human. He needed to depend on the Holy Spirit even though he was 100% God, 100% equal. What was Christ's fear though? What was his fear when he asked if this cup could be taken away? but he had eternal life and he was going to lay it down for you and me.

Well, that's true, but what were the consequences of that? Separation. Absolutely. I mean, he and his Heavenly Father would be separated. Don't you think? And that fear was a godly fear. That was not a self-serving fear. I mean, despite the pain of the cross and all the torment and trials that he went through in that last day. I mean, the fear was separation from his Heavenly Father. So, again, I think that kind of fear is Spirit-led, and that kind of fear is what we approach God with fear and trembling. But other fears, I think, are self-serving, are self-declared, and ultimately need to be recognizing the fact that perfect love does cast out fear. Again, in these earthly bodies and in these fleshly circumstances we're going to have fear, but it says here clearly that perfect love casts fear out.

Okay, the last verse today, we love him because he first of all loves us. Him is not in most translations, not in the original interlinear Greek, and I like that. I mean, we love because He first loved us, right? We can love Him because He first loved us, but Him's not in the original text. So leave Him out. I think in context in this first chapter, or fourth chapter of 1 John, Him is not really an essential part of the text we're reading.

We're talking about the love that the believer shows for his or her world around them. I think it does make a difference in terms of the interpretation of the verbs. Our love here is present, active, subjunctive, whereas God's love is aorist, active, indicative. I said today's a study of verb text. The subjunctive mood is the mood of possibility and potentiality. The action described may or may not occur depending upon the circumstances.

The aorist tense is characterized by its emphasis on punctiliar action, that is, the concept of the verb is considered without regard for past, present, or future time. There is no direct or clear English equivalent for this tense, though it is generally rendered as a simple past tense in most translations. The aorist tense doesn't have to be past, but most times it is interpreted in that sense. Once for all is a good way to go. That's true.

So it says here again that we love Him because He first loved us, eliminating Him. So we love, and again, keep in mind that that's subjunctive. We love sometimes, and sometimes we don't. But our love is dependent on our faith in the Lord Jesus Christ loving through us. because he first loved us, factual, aorist tense, done deal. Okay, and like our love, his love is active, but unlike our love, his love is a fact and unequivocal. Tom? It's interesting that it's agape type love and not the lesser forms. Okay, and agape love means? Without regard to self, unconditional love. Kind of what Pat was talking about before, right? All right, good.

Notice the condition for our loving here. How do we respond to this? We love because he first loved us. What's our response to this? Noting that subjunctive is meaning it may occur, it may not occur. Well, we turn to Scripture. 1 John 4.10, And this is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. Christianity 101. But God, who is rich in mercy because of his great love with which he loved us.

Ephesians 2.4, which is a sentence that goes on for about 400 verses. I like Titus 3, 3-5, 5 For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another. But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior towards man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy, he saved us through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit.

That text reflects on not what we're doing, but ultimately who we are. And so my terminal thoughts about today is that our love has nothing to do with the circumstances. how we feel or whether our neighbor is deserving, but who we are. And that perfect love is who we are. And that, in fact, allows us to carry out this great task of loving our neighbors ourselves.

It just occurs to me to say that the subjunctive points out the potential to love as in contrast to the lack of the potential to love. In all these verses, you know, he who does not love is not of God, that is also true here. We can love, there's that potential, because he first loved us. If he hadn't first loved us, we wouldn't be able to love.

Yeah, I think Roy's put a good twist on this, is that the subjective means we can, it's possible we may now love, whereas once we had no capability. How do you measure this love? Is that something we need to be concerned about? You can, because either you're abiding in Christ or you're out of fellowship. One or the other. You can't be both. What does a walk in perfect love look like? What does Christ look like?

You know, kind of a theological tangent here a little bit, but you know, we all know this, but I think it's important to be reminded of this. I mean, Paul, in all of his epistles, in the first half of the epistle approximately, he's all kind of who we are in foundational truth about our identification. And then that second part of epistles, Ephesians is a good example, but there are others.

Ultimately it's what the walk looks like. But we don't look at the second part until we know the first, because the second part is dependent on an active faith in the identification that we have with the Lord Jesus Christ. So what's a perfect love look like? It looks like something that we're not measuring. It's a walk in confidence and joy and encouragement that in fact we've been born again into a new creation. And we'll let others, if they will, but the ultimate judge is the Lord Jesus Christ, but we're not measuring up to some standard here. There's a rest and a peace that allows that love to ensue.

It's a very different gospel than what many people preach and teach, isn't it? Again, the commentaries on these verses in verse 17 particularly was, how you doing at this walk that you've been called to? And boy, I only can claim I'm failing if I'm putting some sort of a standard or a metric to this. Other thoughts, expressions? Just kind of an observation this morning that it seems that John, again and again, both in the Gospel of John and here, reminds us that that God first loved us, that that love initiates there, and that ours is a response of love to Him.

John 3.16, for God to love the world.

And 1 John 4.10, when He was first to me. Good.

Other comments? Come on, the bell hasn't rung yet. We've got some time. It's unusual for me to finish ahead of time. You know, I think another thing that surfaces here occasionally is the fact that the body of Christ is noses and toes and thumbs and various parts of the body, and we all manifest that love in our different walks and different ways.

And again, there's no standard of what that love looks like. It's each one of us, in fact, as we walk, providing a light unto darkness for the unsafe world, but also building each other up in the faith. Isn't that so true? I mean, what Gail offers is different than what Jack does or what Pat does. I mean, we all have kind of different roles in manifestation of that love. And there's no equality here other than we're all one in Christ. That's the only standard. And this is not our measurements that we put what this life looks like. Yeah, Pat?

I can think of a fear that is when we question God. seems kind of a fearful thing to do, yet I do. And one of the things that I struggle with is, you know, the verses where Paul admonishes people, how can you judge God? Some are, what is it, the or whatever makes some for glory, some for not glory. And I think that it sounds like God made some people and chose some people to be saved and some to be condemned. And I struggle with that. You should struggle with that. human being, saying, how can you have all these people that were chosen to be saved and chosen to be condemned for eternity?

Yeah, Pat, I'm glad Tom has put up his hand here in response to that question. Tom, go ahead. All I can do is speak metaphorically. You're looking at the wrong side of the tempestry. God sees this as complete already in him. And all we're looking at is all this crazy non-coordinated color pattern. And it looks like, God, I'm getting confused here, instead of trusting and resting in Him by faith.

God would have all men come unto Himself, all to be saved. And yes, God knows His own church, but He gives every man free will. This is oil and water too, but God knows the perfect truth here. I don't think we need to spend much time trying to figure this out. He would have all men come unto Himself.

I mean, yes, there are places where he says he uses that clay in different ways and different people, but the focus is entirely on the Lord Jesus Christ, and because all are called unto himself, we know that ultimately the decision not to be there is made by self. Yeah, Nancy. I realize that this is not a simple concept. But can it be simplified down to, God chooses to accept all those who choose to believe in Him, and He will accept everyone, He does not deny any man who will believe in Him. And the choice is ours, because He would have all wisdom to. But that again puts the focus on man. I would say that God is wholly righteous and just. He said that no one's going to be missed. Exactly. Yeah, yeah.

Taking along with what Donna said, to me, when I say the 17, we may have confidence. Is that my human confidence? That's the thing I struggle with. Is it my confidence or is it the confidence that No, he's told us to have confidence. I think that's our human response, not of the sinful nature, but it's just our pneumatic response led by the Spirit. Our Spirit, the Holy Spirit, merges into having confidence. I think we don't want to dissect that out, that confidence is God-given, it's factual. Do we believe it? We believe, yes, that we should have confidence. I don't think we should overly dissect that as to what the source is in that.

The word chosen can also mean recognized or delineate that here is a group of people or an individual in that group that God recognizes has faith or does not have faith. We spin it to mean I choose and therefore I cause something. God chooses on the basis of I am and what I've done or not.

And I can only think of Pharaoh as the greatest example of that. He repeatedly hardened his heart against God. I'm not going to let these people go. And it wasn't until way late in that process that God hardened his heart and confirmed his decisions. I think another good example is that of Judas Iscariot, right? I mean, the Lord knew who would betray him. Did he cause him to betray him? No, but he knew. He foreknew who would betray him. Was Judas born to betray the Lord Jesus Christ? No. Did Judas betray the Lord Jesus Christ?

Yes, and that was known by God. So these are concepts that are often difficult to intellectually sort out. We have to believe the word of God as it's written and true. So I'd like Roy's concept of God and Don as God's holy, righteous, and perfect. And ultimately, he calls all men unto himself. And we're going to have to let him solve that curiosity that all of us have raised at times in heavenly places one day.

I mean, when I first got saved, I mean, I was really bogged down by this. This really bothered me a lot. And, you know, it's not that I'm now so advanced. I mean, don't misinterpret this, but I think ultimately I just had to leave it to God. I don't understand this perfectly well. But, you know, 99.999% of Scripture really doesn't deal with this concept directly.

It does perhaps indirectly, but this is something. I mean, this is written to the body. We're the body. We're responding to what God said through John here today. And we just have to trust Him that He knows what He's about here in terms of times eternal versus times temporal and how man views that relationship.

Any other wisdom or thoughts about this? You know, I would say, too, that we don't know. I mean, we think we're saddened because people that we love are not saved, and why isn't that? But there's no way we're going to ever know that. Only the Lord knows for sure at the end if someone is with Him or not. We don't know that.

In fact, remember, God reveals himself to all men, first through creation, secondly through conscience, and thirdly through Christ. I mean, the three C's of God's revelation of his presence. And Romans 1 is beautiful in terms of expounding upon that. So every man sees God in some way.

All men have not heard of Christ. And that's another question we all ask. How can someone who has never heard of Christ then be cast into the eternal fire because of that? I mean, again, that's a question that I can't adequately answer, but I'm going to leave it up to God. We're only saved through Christ. And that's what Scripture says. Gary, can you close us in prayer, please? I'm very grateful. that we do have this grace that you have extended to us and that we can lean on your word, lean on the accomplished work of Christ on the cross.