Knowing and Growing - Church discipline - what is that? When & Why?
Vern Peterman · Nov 19, 2017
Knowing & Growing, No. 44
Holly Hills Bible Church
https://www.hollyhillsbiblechurch.org/teaching/messages/492669495561

Transcribed from the recording by SermonAudio, so expect the occasional misheard word.

Moving through things, Randy taught in my absence here on some topics and for the next month about we'll be looking at topics on the church and we won't be meeting Christmas Eve for the elective or for the New Year's Eve either. So basically we'll have another month here and then that'll be it until we start up again next year. So, wow, here we go.

Okay, so this one we're looking at what's called church discipline policy and basically what I want to do is walk through, talk through What we have is the Church Discipline Policy. You'll even see on page four the places where Roger and Mike and I signed these without our signature, but that's the documents. And so what has been called Church Discipline is a really important thing to talk about. It's one of the things we've put in place as a policy. When we say Church Discipline, what do we mean?

What's that all about? Excommunication. Excommunication, yeah. I guess one of the things is what are some of the thoughts and things that it conjures up if you hear those words? Law. You hear law, okay. So that's one thing is, boy, we're going to come down with the law. And by the way, people will say, oh, the synagogue was just the Jewish church. Well, the synagogue was actually even more serious because in the synagogue they carried out what was allowed under the Gentile laws. They carried out what the law of Moses prescribed or what tradition prescribed in the synagogue. Yes, and so that, here's a for instance.

It is required that a man show affection to his wife. If she comes to the synagogue leaders and says, hey, he's not being affectionate with me, they can actually begin a series of fines, they did begin a series of fines, and then once you went through the table of fines, the next step was they started the whippings. And so either a man needs to show affection to his wife or give her divorce papers. And so they can't make you do it, but they might make you really wish you did.

And so in that sense, for various reasons, the synagogues were not just a church building, but they were also essentially courtrooms. Whereas in our own culture, prison time is one of the primary means of enforcing the law. Yes, there are fines for different things, but prison time And then degrees of punishment being more prison time, right? It ends up being how the law gets enforced substantially.

They didn't have that, except to hold people temporarily until a judgment was made in New Testament and Biblical times. Instead what you had was if there was anything like a prison, and it might be just some chains bolted to the wall, What they had essentially was the synagogue was a courtroom, or they did it at the gates.

Here in the church, we talk about church discipline, and at no time do we issue fines or start the whippings. It never happens. Let's talk about something on the extreme. I know Stan mentioned excommunication. Can the church do anything more severe than that? I haven't heard of it. Yeah, not likely.

It was actually carried out In earlier centuries, like say under the Puritans and whatnot, that they had various actual physical punishments that they carried out on people that were church-related. But especially in our own culture, in our own time, that's not what's intended. And in New Testament times, that's not what was intended. That just is what evolved in certain places.

So when we say church discipline, one of the things we want to say at the very start, and in its first sentence there, the starting point in church discipline is that the goal is for the erring brother or sister to be restored. The goal of love is restoration. That's where you're aiming. So the error The error in carrying out church discipline is to go either too far, too fast with it, or not far enough and too slow.

Let me share some extremes. So one pastor that I heard of, his daughter did something that he didn't like, so he immediately took it to the front of the church and denounced her in front of the church, and that was it. That was the first step. In another church that I'm aware of, this is one down in Texas, another church I'm aware of, one of the pastors on staff was using the church computer to look at porn while the receptionists and other ladies working in assistance watched. and they did nothing.

So there's not enough response, and then there's overreaction. So those two things are the possible errors in church discipline. So that's why we say the starting point is that we're looking for someone to be restored to fellowship with the Lord and fellowship with the rest of the church body. The goal of love is restoration. So that's key.

And so doing nothing and not doing enough, not addressing a problem, by the way, this church situation I referred to down in Texas, people were quitting the staff because the church elders were not doing anything to address it. end up people leaving the church, people quitting staff, because the elders just did nothing about this porn problem right there in the church offices. So it can be a real divisive issue. And so just the key thing is to realize that the goal of all this is not to go and jump real quickly to some fast and final sort of step, nor to just be unresponsive. One of the things, we went to Carson City and to Redwood Valley, California, Carson City, Nevada and Redwood Valley, California, and in both instances, multiple cases of pastors in some sort of sexual sin, and in a few cases, landing them in jail. And so these are all just kind of, whoa! So it can get serious, and even to the point where the world recognizes, you know, you've got a problem.

Let's take a look at Galatians 6.1, which is an important first step and first insight in this matter. So, here's the central passage that conveys the principle of the Arian brothers and sisters to be restored. And it helps us to understand the path.

Alright, so here it is, Galatians 6.1.

Brethren, if anyone is caught in a trespass, you who are spiritual, restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, each one looking to yourself, so that you too will not be tempted. Okay, so that's just one verse. There's a lot in it. So let's take a look at the lot. So the one there, it says if anyone is caught in a trespass, that word trespass has the idea of to fall alongside, as if to fall alongside a path.

So you can imagine someone is walking along a path, and you can even imagine them walking with others along a path, and then they fall off and alongside it. often alongside that path. So the idea is that it gives a picture of their walk step-by-step. Because Galatians 5, 5.16, talks about walking the spirit step-by-step. And so this is being spiritually, and I can say morally, sidetracked. spiritually and morally sidetracked, off the path. The goal of love, here's restoration.

So it says, so if anyone is caught in a trespass, and by the way, can it happen to anyone? Yeah, could happen to anyone. It so happens that these instances I just told you about, you know, Carson City and Redwood Valley, you know, It happened to guys who had some aspect of the title pastor. Their role in the church was pastor. But in truth it could happen to anyone. Anyone in the church body. And he was caught in the situation where they've fallen off the path of fellowship with the Lord and with their fellow believers.

So what do you do with them? First of all, who is qualified in this restoration ministry? Spiritually matured. Okay, so it says, you who are spiritual. Now what does that mean? You have the Holy Spirit in you. Okay, so this is one. Now, you are spiritual, so first you have the Holy Spirit in you, and how does that happen? So this is you have the Holy Spirit in you because you're a believer.

So this isn't the world coming in and bringing in justice, although the trespass may be of such a nature that that's also involved. It's not a replacement for what the church does. So your spiritual one is it's a believer. But is that the only requirement?

Suppose I come in, you know, someone is caught in a trespass, and I come up to him and say, Man, I am really mad at you! I am really, really, really upset! You horrible, terrible person! Right? And maybe I even use more intense words than that. Is that what he has in mind?

If I go in there and I am really, really angry and upset, Does that qualify me as spiritual? No. I think it's like the Barnabas. Okay, so one is a Barnabas guy, and we're going to see more, you're right about that, very much so, because this Barnabas guy is really, we'll see the range and the spectrum of his ministries as we continue through the Book of Acts here. Yes, this Barnabas guy, that's a key aspect to this.

What else is going on here? This person who is spiritual. What has he just gotten through talking about in chapter 5? He said in 5.16, walk in the Spirit and you won't be satisfying the desires of the flesh. So let's ask this question. Is a person who is satisfying the desires of the flesh a person who is spiritually qualified for restoration ministry.

No. And that's even if they come across as holy, you know, I'm a good guy and you're not, and boy, I'm going to let you know about it, right? So it's possible that there is an arrogance to it. It's possible that there is an anger to it, that there's a condemnation to it that is not It's not spiritual. So it is possible for someone to come alongside who's a believer, and even if they realize that this person has done something wrong, but they're still not spiritual. And why are they not spiritual? How do we know that they're not spiritual? They come in there and Well, fix this guy's wagon, right? So, why are they not spiritual? What's the problem? They may not be a believer.

Well, okay, one is you certainly want to make sure they're a believer, but the person who is spiritual is the one walking in the spirit, right? So the thing is, it's walking in the spirit, ultimately, that qualifies the believer, one who is not walking in the Spirit, will not be able to carry out this ministry. And you who are spiritual, then what's next? You who are spiritual ought to really make that guy feel horrible. You who are spiritual ought to come out with heavy layers of condemnation. You who are spiritual should make that guy shake in his boots. And what's the word there? The word is restore.

This is the same word that is used, there's a couple of different contexts in the New Testament that we can look at that I think are helpful. It's the same word used for mending nets in the Gospels. When the disciples were along the shores of Galilee, The Gospels described them as doing various things along with their fishing, including mending nets. So it happens that, especially at the north end of the Sea of Galilee, there are a lot of rocks under the water, and putting the nets down, you'd be inclined to tear some of the nets up, and you'd need to mend them.

So the word restore has that sense. There's another application that's not directly mentioned in scripture, but Dr. Luke would certainly understand it. The medical texts of the time, and the one we have is by a fellow named Galen, about that era, the medical text used the same word for setting a bone that had been broken so that it could heal properly. So you think about that, this is a restoration ministry pictured by mending the nets, pictured by setting the broken bones so that it can heal properly. That idea.

It's the same word that the Apostle Paul uses for the Church of Corinth, 1 Corinthians 1.10, where he talks about, you guys have doctrinal issues among you and you need to mend it. Same word. You need to mend your doctrinal differences. It doesn't say ignore them, mend them.

So really, I think a key set of insights here that you are to restore such a one, the one who's gotten ripped up. You are to restore such a one where something as serious as a bone is broken and we're going to set things so that they can heal properly. You see the difference there? So it's not, you know, hey, you know, it'd really be nice if you fix that and, you know, let me know when you're done. And it's also not coming in and saying, you know, boy, you're really going to get it, I'm going to tear you up one side and down the other. Right? You've already been torn up. Probably. Yeah, probably.

And this is where, you know, what's the goal? What am I trying to do? I want to restore such a one. and heal relationships back up. And so, let's continue to look through that. You who are spiritual, restore such a one with the spirit of severity, with the spirit of condemnation, with the spirit of intensity, with the spirit of fire. What is it? With the spirit of And by the way, this is the same gentleness that's up in the previous chapter, 5, 22 and 23. Love, joy, peace, patience, gentleness.

So that also points to you who are spiritual as those who are walking in the Spirit. So this ministry comes out of the ministry of the Holy Spirit indwelling the believer, and the believer who is in this restoration ministry is walking in the Spirit. Does that make sense? Yes?

Philippians 4-5 says, let your gentleness be evident to all. John MacArthur said that the word gentleness means basically compassion with humility. And so those are important aspects of looking at this gentleness. This isn't just being wishy-washy, but it's talking about compassion.

How is having compassion and humility going to make this restoration different? You're going to be relying upon the doctrine of the Word. You're going to do it in love. You're going to try to mend this person back easily, compassionately, so he can be restored and whole.

So this is a set of perspectives, attitudes, qualities, spiritual characteristics that come together here. Because it is possible that, you know, if you think about this, if anyone's caught in a trespass, that if I miss the subsequent guidance, that I could flub it. Right? You who are spiritual could mean, you know, you who think you're real spiritual, you who are holier than thou, right? You, instead of restoring such a one, could be condemning such a one, carrying them up further, right? restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness that can come across as a spirit of severity, in a spirit of intensity and harshness.

A lack of humility. Boy, you're really awful and I'm sure glad I'm better than you. Is that what he's looking for? No, not so much. Any attack is going to be resisted. They're going to push away. And that's exactly what you don't want. So what you don't want is to have this carried out in such a way that you cause a resistive reaction. Right? So that's key.

Then here's something else about it. Each one looking to yourself. So does that mean I'm beholding myself and not the Lord? Or what's this talking about? There is a certain element of self-examination or self-assessment. In other words, to even ask the question, am I walking in the Spirit as I enter into this? Am I seeking to restore? So the self-examination is not just getting all self-contemplative, but rather it's looking to what's the biblical content. Am I going in there with the spirit of gentleness? So it's self-examination with the reflection being from the Word of God itself.

And so I can look at those things, here are the hazards, that I'm not walking in the Spirit, the hazard is that I'm not really looking to restore this person, the hazard is that I'm not looking to do this gently. I think another hazard is watching out that you're not going to fall into, you're going to fall off the path too, fall into that. Yes, and that's the last part, so that you too will not be tempted. In other words, if you look at it in one way or another, there is a possibility that someone who is going into this circumstance ends up getting pulled into trouble. Right?

An illustration of this, My kids in Carson City, one of their other grandpas is on the Carson City search and rescue team, which is a volunteer thing. He goes in with off-road vehicles and various kinds of equipment and also some training to help do search and rescue work, which is frequently in the middle of the night. So in his search and rescue, what is the hazard to someone going out and doing search and rescue? What's the risk when they go out and do search and rescue?

They themselves get pulled into it. You're trying to rescue someone who is drowning. What's the risk? That you drown with them, right? You go in there and someone has broken through the ice. What's the hazard? Do you go up and try to help them? You break through the ice too, see?

So the difficulty here is just going out and rescuing, just taking the rescue analogy here, going out and rescuing may have its own hazards. And so Paul is looking at that emotionally and spiritually speaking. This is an essential ministry, but it's also a hazardous ministry. It is possible that these things not be done right and that we end up getting sucked in to either the same thing or failing one of these other cautions, some other problem.

Yes, Stan? I was going to say, back in those days, and it's similar today, but they came out of a very polytheistic environment, and their lifestyle was totally different from Czech and Romans 1. So... Really difficult, yes. and they come into a church environment, and maybe it's not what they expected. Maybe they aren't getting what they thought they were going to get in a church environment. So I think one of the things that they're talking about is the fact that they would want to go back to their previous lifestyle, and they may be a believer. They want to go back to the previous lifestyle because they aren't finding the relationship and fellowship within the church.

And that's why I was just reading through last week's, because I wasn't here, but Randy talked about togetherness and unity and oneness and all that other stuff. If they don't find that, they'll go back. You can do it today, too. Easy. Oh yeah. So this is an area that's very important.

It's an area that, frankly, the Church struggled with back in New Testament times. And you can find multiple instances of the apostles providing guidance to people in the Church to deal with things that had gone awry. And here's Paul's guidance to the Church of Galatia. And just a quick summary, what was the problem the Church of Galatia had?

Just big headlines. Legalism was a big problem. By the way, is legalism falling off the path? Yes. Legalism is falling off the path. So how do you restore someone who's been drawn into legalism? With severity? Yeah, and so what they need to understand is grace, and that's what they don't understand, right? So this is something, and again, it's real easy for the person to try to correct it, and end up correcting legalism with some more legalism.

And it's His grace, and that's why we need to know who's doing the doing. Yeah, this grace is not simple stuff. Grace is so massive that I'm never here on planet Earth going to fathom the depths of it. I will barely, in all my lifetime, scratch the surface and that's it. How do I know that? Because in the ages to come, Ephesians 2-7, He's going to be showing us the riches of His grace. So it doesn't matter how long you live or how long you've been a Christian, Grace is something so deep and so massive, it's going to take a long time. And so the fix for legalism is not more legalism.

You look at this passage, and just Galatians 6.1 has a lot built into it, and you see Restore such a one, by the way, is restore such a one a suggestion? It's an imperative. You must restore such a one, but with these cautions. So one other question comes up.

Should we wait until people have stacked up a number of sins and kind of deal with them on a batch process? Oh no. This is key. And I've seen this happen, where you kind of wait until, it's not that bad, it's not that bad. Okay, he's got enough stuff stacked up now, we need to deal with it. I've seen that approach where we've got to wait until it gets really bad. And then another approach that I've seen is also to just throw everything at them and see what sticks. And both of those are off the mark. So let's take a look.

One is if anyone is caught in several trespasses, anyone is caught in a pile of trespasses, any trespass singular. So that's telling you that. And what's interesting, let's go to page two and you have three more passages about this restoration ministry and how it goes about.

And one of the things you'll notice consistently, not just in Galatians 6.1, but here in Matthew 18.15, Colossians 3.12 and 13, and 1 Timothy 5.19, in all of those cases you're dealing with this singular sin, okay?

Not a pile. You don't let it stack up and pile up and wait until it gets bad enough, right? Well, if it piles, the importance of each thing is diminished. Yes. You have to start at the bottom when there's one, and you just address that one. Here's one other aspect, because you bring up a good point. What happens when we get multiple things piling up, Then the situation gets complex. If we wait until then, we've got a situation that gets complex. And it gets harder and harder to unravel, the deeper and deeper this thing goes. Right?

So in Matthew 18.15, if your brother sins, go and show him his fault, singular, and you do it in front of the church, right? in private. If he listens to you, he's one year brother. So one sin, and you get a committee together? Yeah. And here, this is the first step, as we'll see, there's actually a sequence.

Here's Colossians 3, 12 and 13. So as Those who have been chosen of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness, and patience, bearing with one another and forgiving each other, whoever has a complaint, singular, against anyone, just as the Lord forgave you, so also should you. Whoever has a number of complaints. Eight. Singular. One.

1 Timothy 5.19, do not receive an accusation, singular, against an elder except on the basis of two or three witnesses. So even at that, part of the question is do we have one person, different number of witnesses, etc. But in each case here it is singular. We don't wait until this is piled up.

In the middle of page two, we talk about the particular details in Galatians 6.1. You are spiritual, a spirit of gentleness, each one looking to yourself. And so, one of the points we make is both biblical doctrine and biblical morality matter. Biblical doctrine and biblical morality matter.

In the church at Corinth, by the way, did the church at Corinth have problems? Did they have a problem or a lot of problems? A lot of problems. They had a lot of problems, right? And so they had a lot of problems, multiple problems, many people with problems. This was, you know, very significant.

After the introduction in which he gives them no corrections and no instructions, particularly after the introduction, the first nine verses. Verse 10, the first thing he deals with in their list of problems is, you guys have doctrinal differences, you need to heal them. You need to heal your doctrinal differences. So, do we simply love one another and embrace all the doctrinal differences? That's not biblical. So one of the things is these doctrinal variations that head off in different directions, rather than just saying, well, you know, you believe this, I believe that, let's just love one another and move on. That's not the biblical picture, is it?

So it is a matter of dealing not just with moral and ethical issues, and it may or may not be something that the law recognizes, by the law I mean the public law, the governmental law recognizes as a problem, but in fact even doctrinal variation on something may be one of the things that has someone off track. So biblical doctrine and biblical morality, both of those things matter and may be a part of what needs to be corrected. Okay, so let's take a look. Let's look at page 3 here.

So Galatians 2.20, in the middle of page 3, I have been crucified with Christ, that's my eternal position, right? It is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me. In the life which I now live in the flesh, I live by faith in the Son of God, that is my moment-by-moment condition, who loved me and gave himself up for me."

One of the reasons why we get to this is it's not simply a matter of asking believers to just go about externally abiding by the right doctrine and doing the right things and not doing the wrong things. Why don't we just simply go out and say, well, look, you need to believe this stuff, and you need to do this, and you need to not do that, and are you okay with that?

And the guy says yes, and he's restored, right? Have we really dealt with the issue? No, and so I see a head shaking. Why not? Why have we not dealt with the issue, even if the guy says, sure, okay, yeah, I'll stop doing this, and I'll start doing that, and we're good. Ah, we haven't really dealt with the spiritual issue.

Spiritual unity and spiritual understanding and the basis for walking along the path together and walking in fellowship with the Lord has to do with where is the source of life for pulling this off. Is my flesh, is my human effort going to be sufficient to solve the problem?

Yeah, and so that's a key thing. It's not simply a matter of getting agreement on the outside. Okay, you know, you need to stop doing this and start doing that, and you need to stop saying this and start saying that, and deal with it externally. But to deal with it, what's the cause of the problem here? What's the source of the problem?

Can we expect the flesh, which is the sin nature engaged, right? It's like the transmission, right? The flesh is the sin nature engaged. Can we expect the flesh to believe and to act as if it were restored? Can we restore the flesh and the sin nature? Not happening. So, pardon?

Yeah, and so that's why in order to solve the problem, it's a recognition I have been crucified with Christ. Something had to be dealt with. It is not simply a matter of my getting the person to decide I'm going to do the right thing and no longer do the wrong thing. One of the best kept secrets in all of Christianity is Galatians 5, 17, second half of the verse. Romans 7 starting about verse 12. Both of those passages say you cannot simply will to do the right thing and will not to do the wrong thing.

But what will happen is you'll come into an instance like this and you'll get external compliance. And how well is that going to work? It'll work for a few minutes. Yeah, it'll appear to work for a little bit Long term, it's not going to pull it off. And, the Apostle Paul has told us, it won't work.

Before he told them, you who are spiritual should restore such a one, back in Galatians 2.20, he says, it's no longer I who do the living, but Christ does the living in me. I need to recognize that I've been crucified, and that wasn't by accident, and it wasn't just a preference. It was essential. So dealing with the deep spiritual realities is essential to restoration ministry.

It's not just, will you agree to not do this anymore and to start doing this other thing? Will you agree to not teach that bad doctrine, but to start teaching this other good doctrine? So it's not just an external compliance. It doesn't work because the person might still believe the bad doctrine. He's just not going to teach it.

Yeah, that's right. So all you've got is, you know, I'm obeying on the outside, but not on the inside, right? That sounds like a little kid. Yeah, Stan? I was going to say, that's why it says, I think it's in Ephesians, that he created the new self. He didn't make the new self, or he didn't change the new self, but he created the new self. Yeah, this old man is not somehow improved, not somehow, you know, I'm not restoring that, I'm not you know, fixing up the flesh, I'm not fixing up the sin nature, we're not asking the sin nature to do something good, you know, do the right thing. Have good luck with that, right?

Pardon? Yes, the sin nature has been condemned, therefore, since it's been condemned, how should we expect it to do the right thing, right? Sorry, it's already under a sentence of condemnation. It's terminal. The sin nature is terminal. So you're not going to fix it. That puts a meaning on Romans chapter 8. Because the old nature is condemned, but you are not condemned because you're in the new nature.

Interesting. So let's take a look at page 3, towards the bottom there are some bullets there. Some of the things that might call for church discipline, and these are examples, it's not an exhaustive list. Open sexual immorality, 1 Corinthians 5, this is one of the things that the Apostle Paul is going to have to deal with. By the way, the fellow that's referred to in 1 Corinthians 5, 1-13 is a fellow who was being intimate with his stepmother. By 2 Corinthians, Paul's instructing him to restore the guy. Unresolved personal conflicts, that's what we saw in the Matthew 18 passage. These two are battling one another. Divisive behavior or teachings within the body of Christ. And then next, false teaching. Teachings that are wrong.

So those are all examples, it's not an exhaustive list, but those are all examples of things that may need to be addressed in order for someone to be restored. Because we're running out of time, what I will ask you to do is to take a look at the last page, page 5, which is a flowchart. So if you have first-hand knowledge of sin in the body of Christ, then you go and pass it along and tell as many other people in the church as you can. Right? Is that what you do? So first-hand knowledge, first deal with it biblically. That's the first step.

And then, if you let it go, because here's the other part, there are places in scripture where it talks about if you let it go, if you don't do something. And of course the first issue there, he may not be saved. I use the male pronoun there, but he or she may not be saved. That may be the source of the problem. But you deal with it biblically, come alongside privately is the first step. Privately is the first step. Next, but if he continues, then reprove him with two or three witnesses. So that's the next step.

Why two or three witnesses? To confirm the problem to be in evidence of the facts in terms of testimony, that this isn't just, you know, if I were, for example, to come up to somebody and say, hey, you know, you really need to deal with this issue in your life. And then it, you know, the person doesn't respond, and then I bring along two or three witnesses, and the witnesses say, well, Vern, you really didn't talk to the guy about the problem. Or, Vern, he doesn't have the problem that you think he has, right? So this gets it, and the point being that you have objectivity, right? You're not just ganging up on them. You have objectivity. Other people confirming the facts and witnessing it. Yeah.

Are the witnesses for your interaction with the person you're talking to or are the witnesses to what has happened in this person's life that you're wanting to address? You're not wanting to gang up on the person. I think that's a good question. You're not wanting to gang up on the person.

You're looking for objectivity. Confirmation that there has been a confronting on the issue. Confirmation that things are being carried out biblically. That's why it would be really good to read this first and get some understanding. This isn't a we're ganging up on you. It's, is everything that's stated here factual?

Has this person actually done this? Is there a problem? Has it been dealt with biblically? Objectively, have we really addressed the issue? All those things are the reasons for having the witnesses, and notices are witnesses, not just, now I'm going to gang up on the person. Right? Yes? It's also to show the individual the importance, so that there's the motivation to change.

It's no different than if you spank a child and not tell them why. What good did you do? Yeah, I just came up and started spanking. I knew one fellow who grew up in a household where he says, I never knew whether what I did wrong was going to be ignored or I was going to just get beat to a pulp. He says, I never knew. This is looking for objectivity. It's not ganging up on the person. It's not we're all going to hammer them.

This is actually a problem. This is you are actually told the truth. This is, you know, an objective witness, not, boy, now you've got a bunch of guys really mad at you, right? Not a bunch of guys and, you know, we're all now on a gossip team. So it's confirming whether there is a problem and what the problem really is. Yes. And so again, witnesses are for objectivity, right? And so that's key.

And you look for two or three witnesses because you want to have objectivity and it's not just my perspective is you've got this issue. And somebody else looks at it and, well, I don't think they have that. I think they may have this other thing. I'm not getting your point, right? So it's a look for objectivity about everything. Yeah.

And so looking for objectivity and then those people can either confirm, yeah, there really is a problem here. you actually have addressed them, and you notice the things we saw in Galatians 6.1.

Is the person who is confronting them being spiritual about what they do? Are they looking to restore, or are they just looking to stomp on them? Are they coming to them in a spirit of gentleness? Or are they using a bunch of harsh words? So it's someone else looking at things objectively to look at the facts and to look at, is this aimed towards restoration? Or am I just here to fire away at this guy? Yes?

But then again, still, the goal is change because if the person doesn't change, they just leave one church and go to another church. They just take the problem with them. And so that's what's happening in society today. And one of the things that becomes an issue here, one of the things that becomes an issue, and it's a significant one, is with multiple churches, you have people go from church to church to church to church and carry the problem with them. And there may even be a need for one church leadership to talk to another church about what's gone on.

Here's an instance. There is a book that's been out there on child rearing. And the fellow who wrote the book was expelled from one church. Church discipline went all the way to the point where you're out of here. He went to another church, and within four years, guess what? He was expelled from that church, and he's gone on to another one. And so multiple expulsions.

And so the problem is now where we have all these different churches, people can move from church to church to church and kind of bypass what a lot of this is looking for. And so in some cases, it may even require some cooperation. You can have an instance where somebody carried out some evil at some other church, and now they're coming into this church and carrying out the evil again. And without looking at that, they can just go from church to church to church and carry out the same problem. And it has happened. And it does happen. And a lot of times that's because they don't recognize that there is a problem. Yep. Yep. Because people can essentially escape from this and just go to another church, it does become an issue.

Alright, so, final thing, and we've run way out of time here, final thing is that if someone refuses all the way along the line and you've gone down this path, then it's time to tell the church body, but not to jump to that. Then it's time to tell the church body, about the issue that they've refused.

I shared some time back here, that happened at Peninsula Bible Church where I grew up. There was a man, I'll put his name publicly because he knows his name was Lambert Dolphin, he went into a gay lifestyle. The church went through this process and publicly announced, I remember Nancy and I were there when they publicly announced that they'd taken him through this process and he'd refused.

Two years later, they had a welcome home party for him. And he said, the reason that I can come back and be restored to fellowship is they did things biblically. They did things biblically. And so he was restored to fellowship. And he's getting pretty old right now, but I last saw him some years back. And last check, he was walking with the Lord. So, a good outcome.

Let's pray because we're way out of time. Thank you Lord for just your faithfulness. Thank you for this instruction here which reveals your love for each one of us and your love for the church body. And we thank you for these truths that are given because you love us so immensely and you want us to walk in fellowship with you and with one another. We pray in Jesus' name. Amen.