Polemics, Two Natures / One Nature

Two natures or one nature? What are we talking about? Two natures or one nature? What's that? Alright, so Bud who is here says you're Adamic nature and what's that? in Christian nature, nature in Christ, okay? It's important to understand what we're talking about here. Some people will object to the word nature, but there's a reason why I think it's fine to go ahead and use it. One reason is because the alternate terms people come up with don't work any better.

But anyway, so the unbeliever has but one nature that governs the unbeliever's thoughts, perspectives, and motivations. This sin nature manifests itself through the human body, and that nature is manifested through the human body and is referred to in the New Testament epistles as the flesh, sarks.

I have a footnote here, which I purposely put in large print. While I put it as a footnote, I didn't intend that we skip over it. I have, on more than one instance, had people object to the use of the word nature. They will say, well, the Bible doesn't use that term for the sin nature or anything of that sort. Therefore, I don't like using it. I would suggest to you that it is still a good word to use.

There are certain words that we use as words of understanding, even though Scripture doesn't directly use it, because Scripture teaches it. For example, the Trinity. Scripture does not have that word anywhere in the Bible. It is, however, a consistent teaching from Genesis to Revelation. The rapture is another term that we have gotten. Harpazo is the Greek term, but the word rapture, which is from Latin, is the word that we've gotten in English.

I think it's fine to use as long as we understand it. Same thing with this word nature. It's a word that is a handy handle, if you will, and it is valid. Let's take a look at the dictionary definitions of the word nature. And of course, like a lot of words, there are several. I've picked the one that fits our circumstance. This is from dictionary.com. Definition number five is the sum of qualities and attributes which make a person or thing what it is, as distinct from others. Native character, inherent or essential qualities or attributes, particular constitution or quality of being.

We would say, for example, that a crocodile has a crocodile nature. If you go to the zoo and there's a crocodile and it's over in the corner meowing, you say, wait a minute, something's wrong here. That's not according to the crocodile nature, right? That nature is that collection of attributes and characteristics.

Some people say, I don't like that word, I like disposition. Well, you look up the definition and guess what? They use the synonyms nature, Some people say, I don't like that word nature, and I don't like disposition, and I like the word principle. That's fine. Look up the dictionary and it says nature. I'll just settle with nature. So you have this word nature.

The unbeliever has this sin nature. Everything that the unbeliever does acts out of that nature. It's the character of the sin nature to pursue life not eternal life, but to pursue life apart from and separated from the life of God. That's a message that we got consistently in the book of Ephesians, chapter 2, first three verses. The next is verses 11 through 13, and then again in 4.18. Separated from the life of God. That's the way that Ephesians describes it. The expressions and manifestations of the sin nature are the trespasses and or sins.

You'll see scripture use both words, sometimes together, like in Ephesians 2.1. The difference between trespasses and sins are mostly a matter of picture.

A trespass, the Greek word paroptima, means to fall alongside the path. That doesn't mean you're real close to the path, it means you're not on it. And to fall alongside might also be a cliff. fall off the path. Not like that. The other is sins, hamartia, which means to miss the mark. You pull back on the string, you let the arrow loose, oops. Either way, the picture is you didn't make it. It's not on target. You're not on the path. You're not in the right place.

So Scripture uses both those words to describe, sometimes together as in Ephesians 2.1. Okay, when by the ministry of the Holy Spirit, the unbeliever is brought to the place of willing to believe. Okay? Now, let's ask this question. Is the sin nature ever inclined to believe in Jesus Christ for salvation? How could you say such a thing? No? Why not? What? It's the nature, right? That's right. I used the example earlier of the crocodile. Is a crocodile going to get out and start taking off and flying? It's not crocodile nature, is it?

The only reason that the unbeliever, who is otherwise entirely directed by the sin nature, the only reason that the unbeliever would believe anything different than the sin nature's directive is because of the ministry of the Holy Spirit, right? What is the Holy Spirit going to be telling and convincing that unbeliever about? What's the Holy Spirit going to do?

About his sin. There's going to be conviction of sin. and of righteousness and of judgment. Those three things. And it's interesting, there's a whole list of ministries that the Holy Spirit has with the believer. With the unbeliever, the list is much shorter. And it's directed on bringing that unbeliever to a place of believing. Not because the sin nature would ever go along with it, but because of the ministry of the Holy Spirit which makes that person willing to do what they would otherwise be unable to do. by the sin nature alone.

Okay. So, what happens there? The person who has believed is then brought into relationship with God, immersed into the body of Christ, and then has an irreversible position in Christ in the heavenlies, which consists of a substantial and unfathomably gracious list of blessings. Incredible blessings. Unfathomable. Just mind-boggling. It's like, wow. with exclamation points and really big fonts.

The unbeliever has a new nature and is then indwelt by the Holy Spirit. We've done a real quick summary on what happens then when a person believes, haven't we? We've described the unbeliever as having that one nature and this new believer then having a new nature, but then comes the question, what's happened with the old one? That's where we come to our question. Now it's one lump or two.

So the question arises regarding the believer. What happened or happens to the sin nature that once reigned in the unbeliever? Why do we use that word reigned in the unbeliever? The sin nature used to call the shots. The sin nature was the undisputed monarch called the shots absolutely. And once that unbeliever comes to a place of believing, the sin nature is pitched off of that place on the throne.

Now, so the question is, is it eradicated or does it remain in the believer? If it is eradicated, why do believers still commit acts of sin, which we'll find is a very important question. If it remains in the believer, what is its status? If it remains in the believer, for how long does it remain? And does a believer have one nature or two?

These are the questions we're going to examine. All right? We okay so far? Everybody on board? Okay, nobody fell off the ship? I use that analogy, I think Roger and Vaughn are on their way to Alaska or something. Anyway, okay, so everybody's on the ship.

The question is, what have we been thinking? I'm thinking not just of us, but over church history. What has been the thought? Over the centuries, the church, with minimal exceptions, thought that the believer had two natures, the divine nature resulting from a new birth and the sin nature which was retained in the body until death. That's been the view of the church for centuries.

There's an example in the Heidelberg Catechism, which was an early Calvinistic catechism, from Heidelberg, Germany. It actually says in there, I forget which point it is, it's 100 something, anyway, it actually says in there that the believer has two natures, the sin nature and the new nature. Right in there.

So it was a teaching of even the Calvinists and the Reformers. Even in the period of the Reformation, the presence of the sin nature of the believer was generally acknowledged and often even included in the doctrinal statements. That the believer has a sin nature. Then, in the mid-1700s, remember these guys John and Charles Wesley founded Methodism? We referred to them not too long ago. Was that last week we did that? Time flies. They, particularly John, propounded the notion that believers could achieve by a work of God a second blessing.

I don't know how you get that because we've already got all the blessings we need in Christ in the heavenlies, but all right now a second one in which the sin nature was eradicated in that second blessing but allowing a sinless life except for those who lost their salvation then went totally pitched off the out of the heavenlies and you got unidentified with Christ. You got unidentified in his death, burial, resurrection, ascension, and seeding. So the fall was a long way down when you got unseeded. So you would, in Wesley's view, be sinless until all of a sudden you just lost it all together.

So the timeline chart in the appendix shows the longevity of all three views regarding the sin nature. because in the mid-1900s, you've got second to the last page here, a timeline chart, or last page, excuse me, you have a timeline chart. At the top there, that two natures teaching is shown all the way from the New Testament era up to our present time. Most of the church had the two natures teaching up until quite recently. So here's the Wesleyan second blessing, which was the middle 1700s. then you would get to one nature.

So think about this. An unbeliever would have how many natures? One nature. And then according to the Wesleyan teaching, once you became a believer, you would have two natures, but then when you got the second blessing, you would be down to one nature with the sin nature pitched out. Okay? Except if you lost your salvation, then you went back to the one nature, sin nature, and then you could believe again, and then have two natures, and then you could then get the second blessing and pay back to one nature. How about that? How many times do you want to go through that cycle? Okay? How about that for a merry-go-round?

So, that was the way it worked there. Now, what happened in the middle of this last century, about post-World War II, It began to be taught by a couple of fellows, specifically, who put forth this idea, mostly out of the Reformed thinking, that when you became a believer, the sin nature was eradicated. So if you look again at that chart and I frankly I looked at this and thought the contrast didn't come through clearly enough. I will print you out some new ones and bring them next week so you can replace this because the contrast does not come through as clearly as I would have liked. So let's step our way through it quickly. We have the timeline of the One Nature teachers of the last century.

Dr. John Murray and Dr. D. Martin Lloyd-Jones. You heard of one or both of those? You may well have heard of one or both of those, more commonly known as Dr. Martin Lloyd-Jones. Both of those, interestingly, were born the same year, 1898, and they both, post-World War II, began presenting this idea that the sin nature in the believer was eradicated at the point of salvation.

So that idea was presented. That got spread to, taking the top part, Dr. John Gerstner, a theology professor and an author, who went home to be with the Lord in 1996, ten years ago. He began putting forth the same idea in his theology classes and in his books. J.I. Packer, anybody heard of J.I. Packer? Still alive to my knowledge, although getting older. He also began putting this idea forward a little bit later than Dr. Gerstner. And then John MacArthur.

John MacArthur, in his 1975 Galatians commentary, taught in there two natures. Since that time, his teachings in his books and his revised version of the Galatians commentary have gone to one nature. So he's picked up on that view. The bottom part of that, Dr. Martin Lloyd-Jones began about the same time, but not so much on a seminary level and not so much at an academic level. He began propounding that. It showed up in a few different places. Charles Solomon, Grace Life Ministries, he first began talking about this One Nature view in 1967. Ten years later, in 1977, he wrote the Handbook of Happiness. Not sure if I can recommend it, but anyway, that's what he wrote.

And that contained the One Nature view. If you're a believer, sin nature is gone. Dr. Charles Stanley, you still see his messages both over audio as well as on TV. He took on the one nature view, and I note there, and it doesn't show up as well, it's one of the reasons I want to make a new copy for you that's in color. He put forth the idea that there was one nature, but in the last few years reversed it. He said, no, look at the Bible and it's got two natures. So he reversed it, and at least when I checked and put this as reversed, it was on his website that he made a change in his view.

So that's very interesting. Bill Gilliam is Lifetime Guaranteed Ministries down in Fort Worth. I was living down in Fort Worth and never saw him because I was too busy. But anyway, he followed on with that and seems to have gotten it from Charles Solomon. And then Lee LeFaber with Exchange Life Ministries, which is an Aurora. Anybody heard of that one? It's located in Aurora. That is also a One Nature teaching. There has tended to be a pattern of this teaching, this One Nature teaching, going into three areas.

One, it is much more common among those who are of a Reformed mindset, although the original Reformers were not. of that view. It is much more common among those who are of kind of a secular psychology integrated with Christianity view. And it is thirdly much more common among those who are of the charismatic bent. Those three areas are where the One Nature teaching comes across. So, taking a look at this here, you've got this chart on the bottom of page two.

And so you have the one nature assumption, one nature teaching regarding Christians due to virtual eradication of the sin nature, with death as annihilation of the sin nature in interpreting Romans 6.6 without regard for distinctions between position and condition. Sin nature is gone, pitched out, eradicated. Alright, so now, remember the question we asked earlier? Why is there sin in a believer? Why does a believer sin? That's where you run into the varying answers and therefore the varying solutions. Very interesting. Believe me, very interesting. The charismatic approach.

Ah, here is why you're sinning. It's the Flip Wilson, the devil made me do it, right? Syndrome. Satan is causing the believer to sin. Boy, Satan, he is just, he's practically omniscient and omnipotent and omnipresent. Because boy, he is everywhere. and every other minute we've got to go bind him. Demons are causing the believer to do this.

At the Vineyard Church in Carson City, some friends of ours were there visiting. I have no idea why. But anyway, they looked over and the church service hadn't started yet, but there was a guy over in a place nearby and he was barfing. So they said, is he okay? Oh yeah, he's just barfing up demons. No problem. So that was the spiritual solution. You've got to barf them up. The problem is in the unredeemed body, which is the seed of evil. This is getting to Gnosticism, where spiritual is good, but the body is bad.

Sometimes you'll find mixtures of these. People that spend all their time in spiritual mapping. Have you ever seen that? I actually had one gal I knew in Carson City who asked me if I had a really good map of Carson City because she wanted to put a bulletin board up and put pins where the demons were. So then he could go and get a bunch of Christians around those areas and gather around and pitch the demons out of there. So anyway, they really focus on those kinds of things. Now, the next one down, psychological approach.

Ah, your problem is you've got all these dysfunctional family influences remaining from those pre-conversion days and we're going to fix it. Sinful parental influences, that's the problem. It's your parents. My parents made me do it. This is a variation on the Flip Wilson theme. And then finally, the reformed approach. It's just habits. John MacArthur likes to use the term, the old grave clothes. You're dragging around those old grave clothes, and that's why you're still sinning. Well, yes, that's the next one down there.

And remaining humanness. How about that? Remaining humanness. Okay. Marilyn, you're wincing. Yeah, but it's entertaining. Okay. So then it comes down to what's the solution? Because now that you've said there is no sin nature in the believer, and now that you've said, oh, here's the problem, and you've got the diagnosis, now here's the prescription, right?

Aggressive spiritual warfare tactics. We're not going to, you know, Stand again against Satan. Just stand against Satan on the ground that the Lord has given us using the weapons that he's given us. Remember what Paul said in Ephesians 6. Or the other apostles, resist him. And what will he do? Flee from you. As a matter of fact, both 2 Peter and the book of Jude warn against the idea of binding. Specifically warning that that's a false teacher's teaching. So the binding thing is really bad news. It's severely bad news.

So anyway, attacking Satan. We're going to go out and assault Satan. We're going to storm the gates of hell. All these kinds of things. Aggressive spiritual warfare. It is not taught in Scripture, but it is taught among those who say, the sin nature has been pitched out, and the reason is we've got the demons and Satan, and boy, they're just coming at me all the time. And one of the things that I've noticed in groups like that, and I've been among them, and not as one convinced of it, but been among them, is that their focus is not on the Lord. Their focus is on Satan and the demons, because they're always fighting Satan and the demons. Some of them shun the body or appeal to experiences to fix it.

Your problem is you just haven't been slain in the spirit. Your problem is you haven't had a Holy Spirit glue experience where you can't get off the carpet for three hours. Your problem is you've not barfed up the demons, whatever the thing is. You just need to move some more. If you just laugh for a few hours, you'll be fine.

That's the solution. One or some mixture of those. Now we've got the next one. We've got the psychological approach and this is the Charles Solomon, Bill Gillum, Leela Faber and other folks of that kind. Your problem is you just need some psychological help. Analyze the residual flesh. Develop means for changing the habit patterns.

Use one of those rubber bands on your wrist. That'll fix it. Think of something bad, take the rubber band and go snap. If that didn't work, use a bigger rubber band. Okay. Talk about the thoughts and emotions in the residual flesh. Let's get it out and talk about it. How does your flesh feel? Old. Huh? Old. Yes, yes. You know what? My thought on this thing? I don't care how the flesh feels. I don't give a hoot how the flesh feels. I don't want to pay it any mind. And think about this.

Is the flesh always as bad as it could manifest itself to be? Does it always manifest itself as badly as it could? No. The truth is that Hitler, Everybody would think, well, that's a bad dude, right? Adolf Hitler had the same sin nature as every other human being on the planet. And our sin nature isn't any better. And guess what? We're not going to make it get any better either. And I don't care how it feels.

Alright. Teach a modified form of the identification truths. And this they do over at Einstein's Life Ministries. with little or no position and condition distinction. They teach you you've been identified with Christ and all that, and the sin nature is gone. So just forget about it. We'll sit here and analyze what's left over in your gray matter, but that's just cleaning up the scraps.

Or here's the Reformed approach. Bring in the law as the rule of life. Oh, what you need is some really good law. Slam it down hard on that old sin nature. Hail and brimstone, yep. And, yeah, I mean, that's one solution is, boy, bring in the law and bring it heavy, okay? Bring it hard. So, just beat you over the head with the law real good. That's just what you need to bang and whack out those old habits, because that's the only problem is just the leftover habits. You got no sin nature. Just those old habits. That'll fix you, okay? Now, what do you think about that? Well, it seems like if that was really true that it would get better. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, they get better over time. Okay.

What's that? They're afraid. Yeah, and that's the problem with the law. What does the law bring? If you don't make it, what do you got? Death. You got condemnation and the condemnation results in death. Now, what does Romans start off with in chapter 8? There is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus. What does chapter 7 start off with? You're not under law. So, this is not a very biblically prescribed solution, but this is what they come up with.

We've got heaps and piles of law for you. Pick up your tablets at the door as you exit. You know what, Bob asked the question, are we talking about the Mosaic Law or the Law of Principle? The truth is you'll hear both. You'll hear some that, boy, just bang you over the head with the Mosaic Law and they squirm and squiggle when you get to the Sabbath because they don't do that. But, and they also squirm and squiggle when they get to the consequences, which is you don't do this, we kill you, okay? But some, yeah, it's the Mosaic Law. Others, a law principle. He said, no, not the Mosaic Law, but we've got our own set of laws. We'll give it to you. And the consensus of fellow believers. Yes. What do other people think? What do you think is a good law? Let's cook up our own. And what you end up with is just different groups. You know, I was one time at my folks place, this was many years ago, and we have some people visiting from a Christian commune up in Eureka.

And they took the idea from Ephesians, you know, the warning about coarse jesting, no humor. Boy, they, and of course, come into the Peterman household and say no humor. Oh, boy. They had a real tough time with us because, you know, we'd laugh at a joke and making puns and they thought that was all just sin.

Okay. Discipline the fleshly habits. That's what you need. Just discipline the fleshly habits. Give yourself more. Just really pound home these fleshly habits to a pulp. Just beat them with discipline. That's what you need. Then another one, institute accountability with other believers. Get somebody else to help you beat you up. Would you please, as a loving brother in Christ, come beat me up?

Isn't that a wonderful scenario? Okay. So how do you like the solution so far? You happy? Not so much, huh? Okay. Let's turn to the next page. All right. It'll keep you busy. Yes, you got that right. Think about it. And Marilyn makes a good point. Marilyn makes a good point. One of the problems, let's step our way through this. You brought up a good point. I didn't get in here. Okay. Keeps you busy. Think about this.

Sin nature. You're saying it's not there. But, alright, you and I know that the sin nature is there. What does the sin nature like to do? It likes to be busy. Give me something to do. So guess what all those options, all those possibilities do? Gives you something to do. So what does it do? Every single one of them appeals to the sin nature. How about that? That isn't there. How do you like that? It's not there, but boy is it busy! So, what difference does it make which doctrine is taught? One lump or two.

Answering the above question biblically will result in biblically founded action among believers based on this principle. One of the problems you have is once you arrive at the wrong answer, one nature or two, you also end up with the wrong solutions. Notice that the things on the right hand column of all the solutions, none of those are biblical. They are a cooked up answer to an answer to why does the believer sin that's already unbiblical. And so then the solution is unbiblical too. Let's take a look here. If the solution about the source of the acts of sin in the believer is biblical, then the solution will be biblical as well. If I'm coming up with solutions that aren't found in scripture, shouldn't that make me wonder? Pardon?

They sound good, yes. So the teaching of whether the believer has one nature or two is not simply hypothetical or only a matter of semantics. It will have practical impacts upon how we deal with sin and the believer, both individually, each one of us, every single person here in our lives, and on how we deal with things as a church body. Am I going to get up here and teach on Isaiah, or are we going to get busy and get them demons out? Alright.

So, one can ask these questions to arrive at a biblical conclusion. Let's ask the first bullet there. Does scripture call upon believers to repeatedly rebuke, bind, and attack Satan, map the power centers of the regional demons for a spiritual assault, or pursue second blessing experiences and tokens of those spiritually pivotal events? What do you think?

You're laughing. What's that? She said, I didn't even follow that. I lost it. Let me go over again. Does scripture call upon believers to repeatedly rebuke? We rebuke you, Satan. Right? Or bind you. We bind you. Right? I don't know who lets them go. Okay.

And attack Satan. Map the power centers of the regional demons for a spiritual assault. This is where they get the maps out of a city. They'd go to a place like Denver, have a big Denver map, and they'd put push pins on there to map out the areas where the demons are, and they'd gather on mountains, and they'd gather around those spots, and they'd push the demons out with all sorts of rebuking and abuse of the demons. And so anyway, and that happens. There are groups that, boy, a big focus of their time is all about trying to push the demons around. Or pursue the second blessing experiences. I just got to have the right experience, man, that'll really do it to me, right?

There's a church up in Canada and Toronto that has an annual Drunk in the Spirit conference. I can't say that the transcription of what takes place there is all that easy to read, but That's what they have. And the speakers are frequently not standing up for very long. I'm not kidding. They have t-shirts that go along with it. Yes, Randy.

I think it's kind of ironic that with the spiritual mapping, a lot of the times the people will look for a hilltop or an option or something to get up onto to pray over something because they want to be above that economy. In the Old Testament, what is God saying to these people who have gone out and set up these high places and built their worship in that, where God wants to be involved in their daily life and be involved with the real relationship that is part of what Christianity is, and in the Old Testament, just being involved in their relationship is the same. You think about it, what Scripture talks about is your relationship with the Lord. What Scripture talks about is your relationships with other believers. What Scripture talks about is then your relationships with the unbelievers as well. Scripture does deal in some slight degree with Satan and the demons and how we deal with them, but certainly does not draw us to place a central and pivotal focus upon our relationship with Satan and the demons. but what ends up happening is that ends up drawing a lot of people's attention.

Alongside that, pursuing experiences of different kinds. Manifestations that seem to grow, the list grows day by day. All sorts of behaviors and now since about 1980, those behaviors can be anything imaginable and things you and I would not ever want to imagine. Okay, next bullet.

Does scripture call upon believers to seek counseling or to sort out their past and dredge up deep-seated feelings and buried memories so as to be able to analyze and evaluate them and assess their possible impact on present and future behavior? Does scripture tell you to do that?

What's interesting is that, say, Galatians 5, where Paul lists the works of the flesh, some of those are expressions of intense feelings. Scripture does not ignore those things, and Scripture doesn't suggest that we go around as some sort of machines who don't express emotion. On the other hand, frequently what people will go into a secular or Christian counselor, similarly trained, to talk about is how their flesh feels. How does the flesh feel? What's that? Not so good. Yeah. And guess what? A lot of times the flesh has the emotions that Paul listed in Galatians 5 that are the works of the flesh. I'm really, really mad. Oh, good. Okay. Now we know. Guess what? We knew 2,000 years ago.

That's how the flesh is going to feel. The flesh is going to feel hurt and the flesh is going to feel mad and the flesh is going to be afraid and it's going to do all those things and that's exactly how it's going to feel and it's not going to change and it's not going to get any better. Analyze it till the cows come home, even if you don't have any cows, okay? You're not going to make the sin nature any better.

You got a question? Or are you just pondering? Okay, all right. Let's look at the third bullet there. The scripture call upon believers to ever more consistently and vigorously apply the law. The principle of law, that answers the other question there, or to hold each other accountable as the primary means of pursuing life and morality and to curb our fleshly habits.

When you get together as Christians, boy, just bang on each other. Just really wail on the other person. Catch them on stuff and nail them. When you go to the bookstore, to the Bible bookstore, get a heavy, heavy, heavy hardback Bible with lots of indexes and supplemental references because you want to be big and heavy and hard so you can slam it against each other, right?

Is that what the Bible says? Not so much, right? This is one way to smoke out, have they come to the right conclusion? Because the one way to analyze it is not just have they come to the right conclusion, but do the solutions match up with Scripture? And what we find, we ask these three sets of questions here, as long as we can understand them, we ask the three sets of questions, when we look at Scripture and compare Scripture to the solutions, it doesn't fit. That's not what Scripture comes up with. Okay, so what does the Bible actually teach?

Here's Romans 6, 5-14, For if we have become united with him in the likeness of his death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of his resurrection. Knowing this, that our old self, or the old man who we were in Adam, was crucified with him in order that our body of sin, this has the Greek definite article, the sin, might be done away with.

Now this word, done away with, that's where we've got to take a look. I don't have a note here, but you might want to take note. The Greek word is katargaio. And looking at the way it's described here in the context, done away with is probably not the best way to carry it across. It means in context to put out of commission. It's like, you know, you take a transmission and you put it in the trunk. Have you gotten rid of it? No. Could you still put it back in? Yeah, you technically could. Does it belong there? No. But it's not gone and done away with completely either. It's not eradicated. Katargeo is the word. Okay.

Died to sin once for all. But the life he lives, he lives to God. So even so, consider yourselves to be dead to the sin nature, but alive to God in Christ Jesus. I think there's a footnote four there that got kind of pitched away there. It should be footnote three. He died to the sin nature once for all. Okay, next on page four.

Therefore, do not let these sin nature, and here's this word reign that we talked about before, reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lust, and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin, these sin nature, as instruments of righteousness, but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. For these sin nature shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

Okay. Are we under law? Is law the fix? No, we're not under it. It's not the fix. So the problem, if you say that we have no sin nature, but you say for the remaining stuff, we've got the law, what has this passage just told you? You do have the sin nature, but it's been put out of commission. But regardless of anything, you're not under law.

So it's the wrong diagnosis and it's the wrong prescription. How do you like that? Like going to the hospital and get your right leg cut off when it's the left one that needs to have the treatment? No. You want the right diagnosis and the right treatment. And scripture lays it out.

And the right treatment is not the law. The law ain't going to fix it. Dethroned is also a very good way to put it, because that's exactly what Paul says in Romans 6. Do not let the sin nature reign. See there at the top of the page there? Don't let it reign. That word reign is from the same family of words that has to do with king. Don't king it. Okay? Don't king it. For these sin nature shall not be master over you, for you're not under law but under grace.

I've quoted then Romans 7.5. I've chosen the NIV here because it's one version that in this particular instance does refer to the sinful nature. For when we are controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies so that we bore fruit for death. So is the law the solution? No. What's going to happen if you bring the law in? Try to fix the sin nature with the law. Boom! Hey, there's a gallon of gasoline. It spilled over. Let's light a match. Right? That's a good fix. That'll get rid of the gasoline. Right? Oh boy.

Here's some verses farther down. Romans 7, 8-11, But these sin nature, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind. For apart from the lost, sin is dead. And then verse 11, for the sin nature taking an opportunity through the commandment deceived me and through it killed me, it will bring what? Death. Spiritual life or death? Which one do you want? Take your choice. You want to use the law? Uh-oh. It's a problem. He says it's a problem. It's not the fix.

When the believer is taken to be with the Lord and is given a new body like the Lord's, 1 John 3.2, the sin nature will be gone for good.

Gone for good. Until then, we are to reckon ourselves dead to the sin nature, dead in relationship to, and alive to God, in relationship to the Lord. We have relationship with the Lord, recognizing that relationship. Sin nature, is it gone? No. But we are dead unto it. We are alive unto God. There's where life is. Not what the sin nature says.

In Romans chapter 6, Paul uses in 6.11 an accounting term, logizimae. And what he's trying to get the believers to do is to recognize, let's do an accounting. The sin nature, what assets does the sin nature have to offer you? It's zip, right? It's got zip. Alright, so here's the sin nature, it's account zero. Now, your relationship with the Lord, what does that have to offer you? Unfathomable blessings. Life. God's life.

Okay, so now you have one account that has just incredible huge numbers and the other's got zero. Which one are you going to pick? That's what he's asking you to do. You've got this or this. Do you like the zero balance or do you like the other balance with figures that are just hard to count? He said, look at this. Guys, it's obvious. Don't king it. Don't let the sin nature reign. It's got nothing to offer you. The assets that it offers you is zip.

It pays a wage, Romans 6.23, death. It doesn't mean loss of salvation, but it means for every moment that the believer is resting in the sin nature, putting faith in the sin nature, there's no benefit. It's zip. The transmission is in neutral. You can rev up the engine all you want, not going anywhere. So, what's the solution?

You're 2 Peter 3.18, but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. One of the things that happens is if we look at the solutions to those groups who have decided we don't have a sin nature, there's nothing to grow on. There's nothing to grow on. If you're out there in the charismatic realm seeking that answer, what's there to grow on?

Are you going to be better at attacking Satan? Are you going to be better at binding Satan? Are you going to get better at being slain in the Spirit? Five hours instead of three? There's nothing to grow on. How about the psychological analysis? You get analyzed more often. Is that growth? Is that spiritual growth? No. And what are you spending your time looking at? Are you looking to the Lord, beholding Him? No. You're beholding the worst of the flesh, digging it up, dredging it. Moral and spiritual sewage.

Isn't that delightful? How about the reformed, here's the law approach. Anybody read a book or see the book Experiencing God in the Christian Bookstore? That says the law is your life. It says how are you doing with the commandments? You look at what it's offering.

It's all to draw your attention away from Jesus Christ. Peter's urging. We have two letters from him. The last part of the last letter we've got is what we see right here. But grow in the grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ. There is growth. There is something that has eternal value. There is depth. There, I'm not dealing with a focus on demonic or satanic personages. I'm not dealing with the dregs of my own personage. I'm not trying to whack my earthly habits over with the law. I'm focusing on Jesus Christ. Therein is growth. Therein is value. Therein is, as Paul conveys repeatedly in Ephesians, therein is wealth. A wealth. of spiritual riches, the riches of His grace. That's a whole lot better to grow in. That's a whole lot better to count.

Because you'll never stop. So, any more thoughts, questions? Marilyn? When you're talking to somebody that's really involved in something. Yes. Okay. Marilyn asks a good question because, you know, I've been in this situation numerous times and very likely you have as well. She asks the question, how do you talk to and approach someone who holds to some of these views here? And almost certainly you're going to encounter one or more of these. So your question's a good one.

What sort of answers do we have here? How do we talk to someone who is persuaded in one of these areas? Okay, one is scripture, all right? And why would it be good to point them to scripture? Yeah, and that's one thing is they're frequently, because their answer and their solution is deviated from scripture, a lot of times have not looked at it.

The gal who came and asked me, you know, do I have a real detailed map of Carson City so she can map the demons? I said, have you looked at whether or not this is biblical? And she said, no, I really haven't. So then there's an opportunity. Yeah, so scripture is a good place to do it. Bring them to scripture. Let's check this out. Does this make sense? Anything else we can tell them, ask them, talk to them about. You can take them back to the question, and it doesn't deviate from Marilyn's first suggestion. We can ask the question, why do believers sin? Because I think if any of them are honest, they will say, yeah, believers do sin. Therefore, why is that happening? Why is that taking place?

And then, what does Scripture say about that? Paul writes to the church at Galatia, and after he spends several chapters dealing with the law, chapter 5 he talks about the difference between the flesh and the spirit and walking in the spirit. Start at chapter 6, what does he say? If a believer is overtaken by a trespass, this is to fall alongside the path, You who are spiritual, you who are walking in the Spirit, should restore such a one in gentleness.

So what's the point? The point is, restore them. Restore them. There is a restoration, and notice that the restoration doesn't mean you bind Satan. Notice that? Look at the restoration. The prescription, Paul doesn't say, oh, I know what you've got to do. You've just got to go bind Satan. You've just got to have him barf up demons. He doesn't have that solution. You who are spiritual, you who are walking with the Spirit, remember he just talked about that in chapter 5, restore such a one. Get them back on the path that they've fallen off of. Randy?

Well, the thing, my experience with the binding Satan group, because I was in a prayer group in junior high where we did that, My experience with that is that there is an exorbitant amount of time spent on praying these things that are being very anti-Christ focused, or non-Christ focused, but what you end up having is you've got all these people that are just absolutely Right. Your initial focus is is on the demons and Satan and those kind of things.

Remember this prayer of Hezekiah that we looked at this last week? Where did Hezekiah start in his prayer? He recognizes who the Lord is and what the Lord has done, and he doesn't say anything else until he's done that first. And he doesn't do just a little bit of it. He starts there.

Randy's point here is that when you get into this, the solution is to go and bind Satan and rebuke him and pitch the demons out. The first attention ends up getting focused on these beings instead of the Lord himself. It's a massive distraction from anything that is spiritually profitable. And it's not a minor item. That's not a small thing. It doesn't mean that some of these people aren't saved. Oh, yeah, they may not know. Many of them have not thought it through.

My brother told me recently about a gal who had been in a hyper-charismatic church, and I think I mentioned this last week, but it applies. She'd been in a hyper-charismatic church for years. And then she became a believer, and then she was taught about, you know, she was identified with Christ, and then she began to grow. But she was astounded how much time she had spent in this hyper-charismatic church without even being saved, because the experiences and all the binding Satan and everything had just taken over the whole, you know, service and interaction with other people.

Yeah, bud? Yeah, just stand your ground, resist him, and who's going to run? He will. Not our job to run. Don't run after him. Just if he happens to come along, resist him, he'll flee. It's his job to run, not mine. I can just stand here. Let's stand here, or at least let me stand and pray, and we'll bear close. Lord, we thank you. As we look at this, there is indeed so much to be thankful for.

We thank you for the truth that you have revealed in your word. We thank you for what you have shown us by your Holy Spirit's work in us to bring us to the point of truth that you've revealed for us. And Lord, we thank you that you have both made us aware of the sin nature as well as given us by reckoning the facts the very means for dealing with the sin nature. And we look forward to that day when we behold you face to face and the sin nature is no longer an issue. We thank you Lord for your marvelous love for us, your unfathomable blessings. In Jesus name, Amen.