God's Intent for your Finances pt 1 of 3 (Specials)

What we've got is way too much material. And so what we're going to do is we're going to hit the high spots. There is more depth for you to dig into. And for most of this material, we could also add additional material and pass it along to you if you want. So anyway, this is really an introduction. And we can give you more depth and more material on just about any of the subjects we have in here. So we'll be touching on a lot of things here. So if you say, you know, hey, I'd like more on that, just say so and we'll see to it that you get it. Okay? And so let's start with Frank, okay?

Lord, we just thank you that we have this privilege of gathering together. And thank you that you love each of us and care for us so much. And you, because you love us, have given us a great deal to work with and to understand about serial finances. And in fact, it's something you've revealed a great deal about. Let's just pray for our time together and entrust it to you. In Jesus' name, amen. Amen.

Okay, what we'll do is, you've got the binder material, and I'll be kind of hitting the high spots on it, paging through it pretty fast, because this is actually, it's slightly boiled down from something we presented back in 2002, but at that time, we covered, you see this outline in front of you. We took nine weeks to cover what we're going to cover here in three hours, okay? So, that means we're hitting high spots, and so if you feel like you need more information, just, you know, let me know and we'll make sure you get it. We are going to record this so that if somebody wants to, you know, listen to something again or you know somebody that wants to have something available, you can let them know, okay? Now, let's start with the introduction here. One of the things, money ends up grabbing a lot of people's attention one way or another. And Christians have reacted to money in different situations and over time in different ways. Some people have said, you know, money is evil. You know, money is the root of all evil, which is not a true contraction of what Paul wrote. It's the root of all sorts of evil. But some have taken that approach.

Others have taken the approach of teaching prosperity doctrine. You know, God just wants you rich, you know, and you've just got to do all the right things and that'll make you rich. A lot of Christians struggle because the world has got a message about money.

And one of the things we'll touch on here is our economy is stimulated through debt. That's the way it's designed. We are force-fed debt. That's the way that the Federal Reserve Board is designed to pump money into the system, is through debt. It's designed to force-feed debt into the economy. And so that's something we'll have to address.

God's Word takes a different approach. When we went through this back in 2002, many people were actually stunned to find out how many things the Bible addresses about money. Most people were surprised to see how much the Bible actually addresses money issues. On page 2, the bottom half there, I have a quick outline. These are things on Jesus' last week on earth. where he spoke of money.

Here he is, you know, days from crucifixion, and what does he do? He keeps bringing up money again and again and again. It's kind of surprising. A lot of people would think, you know, heavens, why is he doing that? But he does it again and again and again, telling parables and stories, and interestingly enough, they keep having to do with money time and time again.

He spoke of money with utter cost of being a disciple. No servant can serve two masters. The rich young ruler, Zacchaeus the tax collector, about a week before he was crucified, continued to address money issues and tell a parable involving money. He drove the money changers to the temple. The money issues, it's amazing, keep coming up again and again.

So now, and I'm on page three now, so we're flying through here. It's important for church-age believers, however, to discern what scripture is written for them and what scripture is written to them. Not everything about money is directed to church-age believers, and we'll get into that in a little more detail. So we have principle number one here, God's intent, predestined for each believer is to use the principle, circumstances, and constraints related to money to conform us to the image of the Son, Jesus Christ.

That is, people have all sorts of struggles with money, people deal with money, we deal with money left and right. What does God intend for money? God intends to use money as part of the all things work together for good, money included. And what is the good? The good is that he intends to use the things regarding money to conform us to the image of the Son. So that's Romans 8, 28 and 29.

So you can't take it with you. Sorry. You can't take it with you, but you can take with you the conforming to the image of the sun that involves money. So that's the interesting thing. What of all the things on this earth is really going to last? The conformity to the image of the sun, that's what's going to last. And money is a part of it. So when you look at money, that's the part of it that you can take with you.

Not the money. but how God uses money to conform us to the image of his son. Okay, principle number two. We're not our own, we've been bought with a price. Paul's application directly, and this has to do with our bodies, but the general principle there is our money isn't ours either.

You know, one of the things we have here, you know, God's intent for your finances, whose finances are they really? They're his, right? Yeah. They're his finances. Principle number two there. If you think about it, nothing we have on this earth is ultimately ours. The things we have, even the kids, if the Lord's put those in our lives, they're not ours. They're a stewardship, right? Ultimately His. The bottom principle there, number three, the biblical use of money and our approach to it are found in a biblical understanding of God's will. To understand the godly use of money, we must understand what God's will is and is not.

One of the things that is key is a lot of Christians will get sort of the yellow brick road idea about money and about God's will. That God's will is somehow finding the right path, you know, and it's kind of like this rat going through the maze and finding the path that gets to the cheese. But in fact, what scripture lays out primarily about God's will is not finding the right path through the maze. When scripture addresses God's will, and of course we have, here's this passage at the top of page 4, 1 Thessalonians 4, 3, For this is the will of God, your sanctification, to put it in other terms, your spiritual growth. So God's will isn't explicitly, you know, I've got to decide whether I'm going to buy the blue Chevy or the yellow Chevy. That's not what God's concerned about. God's concerned about our spiritual growth and our relationship with Him.

That's what ultimately matters. So when we look at money, you know, do I spend it? Do I keep it? Do I do this or that? It is a matter of God's intent that we grow spiritually. And God's intent that we have a relationship with Him. That's most important. And we can spend more time going over God's will. We have even some materials that we've prepared on that, but we won't go through that now. But a key point is just that. As we go through life, it is not a matter of figuring out this is the golden path and all the paths are the wrong way.

It is the Lord wants relationship with you. He wants you to grow in your relationship with him. And when it comes to money, that's what matters. That's what matters in the end. To put it simply, as we have it in bold right in the middle of the page, God's first and primary will is that we believe in and behold His Son, Jesus Christ, who is worthy. That's His primary will. Page five. Principle number four on the top of page five there.

The law given to Israel through Moses and the manner in which God has dealt with and will deal with Israel is not the same as this manner of dealing with believers of this age. I previously had had training under Larry Burkett. The Lord has taken him home and that's probably good. But anyway, so and that was like over 20 years ago. The guy who's got his name out there now in front of Christians is Dave Ramsey. There are other names, but those are some of the bigger names in the last couple of decades.

Both of them I would have a caution about, and each of them a little different caution, but for both of them this is a caution in common. And that is that they take the law that's set for Israel and begin driving it home for Christians, including, you know, you've got to tithe and all this kind of thing. We'll be talking about giving in a little bit. But it is important for Christians to make the distinction. Because there were specific laws about finances given to the Jews that we are not to take directly as a blind us any more than you're supposed to. Like if you go to lunch now, do not have the crab and the lobster, you know. don't have the ham, you know, don't, no, not that. By the way, those food laws are in the exact same chapter in the books of Moses as the tithing laws.

Oh, and by the way, in tithing, if you're too far away from a tithing center, you must set aside 10% and throw a party. And I'm not kidding. I'm kidding. Those who live too far away from a tithing collection center were supposed to go ahead and set aside 10% and throw a party. Okay.

So when we look at things coming out of the Old Testament law, even into the Gospels, we need to look carefully and say, does God intend that that apply to me as a church-age believer, not living in Israel? We'll go in more detail on that in a little bit in the giving section. But a key point, we're not under law, we're under grace. Principle number five here, towards the bottom of page five.

The Bible talks about money a great deal, not because it is eternal or spiritual, it's not, okay? But because our perspective on money springs directly from our place of spiritual dependence. Very important. You can do all the external things about money, right, but the question is, where is your dependence? If our dependence is upon money, and later on he's going to address a love of money in the New Testament.

We have right below that a Colossians 3, 1 through 5. where it starts off. Therefore, if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on the earth. For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ, who is your life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with him in glory.

Therefore, consider the members of your earthly body as dead to immorality and purity and passion, evil desire and greed, which amounts to idolatry. See, idolatry isn't just always bowing before something that's made of wood or metal or stone. Idolatry is placing something that is controlling and commanding in your life ahead of the Lord Himself. The last part of that is several passages.

First Timothy and then one in Hebrews. And I'll touch on the one from Hebrews. Make sure that your character is free from the love of money being content with what you have For he himself has said I will never desert you nor will I ever forsake you and by the way the the Greek in that I will never desert you and never forsake you It's the strongest way in the Greek language to say absolutely not and he says it twice I will absolutely not it is not even remotely possible that I would ever forsake you So he says, find your security in the Lord, not in stuff, not in money or the things of vice. Essentially, we have the urging of scripture to look to the Lord. And we have a choice, we can look to the Lord, we can look to money and look to stuff. Okay, on to the next chapter. This next chapter looks at kind of the big picture where we are in our culture, in our economy. This last decade has been a real humdinger in the economy. I don't have to tell you. Colorado actually has not gotten hit as hard.

I've been talking to my family over in Nevada and California and they've had almost twice the unemployment rate that we have here. Really severe times. I talked to one fellow who basically lost his business. you know, in the Reno area. And my son is a prison guard at Nevada State Prison. They're looking at their governor's talking about 10 to 35 percent pay cuts. So pretty severe chop.

But what has fed a lot of our trouble are myths in our culture, things that people are taught that are not true. The one myth that shows up is the one at the bottom of page 7. And it goes like this, sufficient money or the things that it buys will make me adequate, loved, fulfilled, at peace, satisfied, etc. And that might require lots of plastic surgeries. Right?

We've had some things hit the headlines of late. And some of the talk shows and whatnot, I remember a gal not too long ago, she had had two dozen plastic surgeries. And I looked at a picture before they started and she didn't look bad when they began. So I don't know what she was aiming for.

But I mean, it's accumulation of things is the mythology. Sufficient things with the money it buys will make me adequate, love, fulfilled, at peace, satisfied. You know, if I just get enough stuff, and of course, One of the things is, if you don't have the money, you can go in debt and get the stuff, and then look like you have the money.

Right? And of course, that's another part of the mythology. Page 8 here, one of the key passages of 2 Corinthians 3, 5, and 6, our adequacy is from God, who also made us adequate as servants of the covenant. See, one of the things that people are always struggling for is adequacy, isn't it? They want to be adequate for life. You know, I want to be sufficient. I want to have what it takes, right?

And so money and things are oftentimes put out there by the world as that's your adequacy. Oh, if you just buy our product, we will make you adequate. Oh, believe me. Your skin will be angelic. If you just buy our $100 face cream, it will just do everything. You'll lose 50 years off your skin, even if you're 25. Right?

Next principle down there. Neither money nor things can provide the things the world says it will, and money and the things it buys are fleeting and temporal. Only belief in and fellowship with the Lord, beholding Him, can provide what modern mythology falsely offers to fulfill through money and possessions. Here's the next myth.

If I made or had more money than I do now, that would be enough. Nancy and I have done financial counseling off and on for the last 20 years and a little bit more. And we sat down with one couple, you don't know them, they're back in Nevada, but sat down with one couple where they made $200,000 a year and couldn't figure out how to live on it. We're talking 20 years ago. They had $200,000 a year. They said, we have no idea how to live on $200,000 a year.

It just gets beyond us. We only met with them once. They were just blown out. They were frantic. I don't think there are believers either, but anyway. The principle there is just as no amount of water will ever satisfy hunger, no amount of money or possessions can ever satisfy what only relationship and fellowship with the Lord can fulfill. There's a tendency for people to cross over on fulfillment. You know, I don't feel fulfilled, so instead of satisfying with what I really need, they will use an alternate. And money and material is frequently in our culture one of those substitute kinds of things. But in fact, it will never satisfy.

When I was a civil engineer, I was working on a project and I had an extremely cantankerous contractor that I was working with. I mean, he was really cantankerous. He was famously cantankerous. Very hard driving, always pushy, always challenging, threatening. Real difficult time. And I, you know, worked with him to get things done because that's the way the contracts happen to work.

But the guy was also really big into, you know, making lots of money and he also would go down, because we were in Nevada, he'd go down to the tables and blow lots of it too. I think it was his brother that drove a backhoe into the casino front door. But anyway. So anyways, pretty wild pushing guy and really into his money into stuff, you know. And I was kind of amazed and not amazed when I saw in the paper this guy had died.

You know, he had some extremely expensive sports car that he drove into a utility pole. You know, he had lived life like everything is worth, you know, expending for money. And whatever I want, that's what I need to do. And relationships, ethics, everything else went out the door for money. And it killed them.

Myth number three, you deserve a break today and a bigger house and a fancier car and new furniture and seven different exercise machines to put in front of your big screen TV and, and, and, and. The frequent pitch on TV, and you see where all kinds of things is, is you deserve.

But right at the face of it, if I deserve it, then why don't you give it to me? Right? You deserve means you're going to buy it. Right? Not you're going to get it free. You're going to buy it. So it's phony at the outset. Right? If I deserve it, then of course you're going to give it to me, which is not exactly what they had in mind. But one of the things that creates this is a mindset of entitlement. I deserve this, I deserve that, etc. And a key problem.

So the principle here Real eternal and priceless value lies beyond what this world can offer or what we can ever earn. While scripture never denies that believers can enjoy material things, the basis of our receiving provisions for meeting needs and fulfilling desires beyond our needs is God's grace, not what we deserve. Think of it in our relationship with the Lord. What do we deserve?

Condemnation, I guess. Yeah, if we demand what we deserve, that's going to get us condemnation. But God's gracious, and thank heaven, thank the Lord, we don't get what we deserve, right? The world saying you deserve is phony at the face of it. But guess what? They keep saying it, and why do they keep saying it?

Because people will believe it. And I'll say, you deserve, OK, then put that on my credit card here. That makes a lot of sense. OK. Page 10. One of the things to take a look at here in the middle of page 10, we got a couple of charts. One of the things that's happening because the US economy is stimulated through debt.

So the personal savings rate, you see the pattern there, and this pattern, you'll notice it kind of peaked out back in the early 70s. The pattern has been for savings, the personal savings rate to just continue to drop for the last several decades, just in sort of a trend channel. Yeah, some bouncing around, but basically drop, drop, drop, drop, drop. And notice where the number is close to right about now. The zip, as a matter of fact, has even gone negative at times. Did they say why savings was high in 78, 79, somewhere around there? What was going on that people were saving? Okay. There was a couple of things.

One is the media had not pushed charge cards to the extent that they do now. As they attempt to stimulate the economy, given our means of doing so, the way that they do that is to push debt. So we don't have an increase in fundamental value. We have debt pushed on people.

Well, if you're putting all your money into debt, you end up paying that back plus interest, right? And it's the difference between paying interest and gaining interest. So that's one of them. The other thing is, during this period of time, with some exceptions, not having much offered in the way of, like, if you go to a bank now and say, I want to put this money in savings, what kind of interest rate do you get?

Not much. Yeah, it's like, this is hardly worth it. And by the time you consider inflation, you're going backwards. So there is a discouragement in the way things are done and the way things are marketed. And then here's the other part, how many credit card applications do you get in the mail? Probably a few, you know? Sometimes a few a week, or even sometimes got a few a day, right?

The fact that that time burn also That's right. That's right. American Express and Diners Club. Yeah. And also coupled with that was we were entering into a wildly inflationary period of time and we were being encouraged to spend your money before it's worthless. That's right. Inflation, aside from any other issues of how much are they offering for you to save, But inflation by itself encourages you to buy something now before it gets more expensive. And so the tendency is buy now instead of save now.

The other chart that you see there is household debt. And boy, the number just is phenomenal. It's just like taking off like a rocket. So a huge huge growth in debt. You know that thing about buying it now because it's more expensive. It seems like it's a gamble and sometimes it works.

It does go up and you can save money, but it seems like it's just a pure gamble. Yeah, and that's a good point. And how many of you have seen the phenomenon where you buy something and you shortly thereafter find it at a lower price? So it isn't a guarantee, but it creates a mindset that says buy it now before it goes up. Whether or not it's actually true, and you're right, it's a gamble. It's a, maybe it'll work out that way, maybe it won't. But the mindset that inflation tends to create, you're right, it pushes in that direction. So urgency itself is a real good salesman's trick. Yes, oh yeah. The day is your last chance. Yes, yeah. Yeah, you might miss out. Urgency.

Page 11, the principle, the world, the flesh, and Satan offer no basis for truth. Only the Lord Himself is the absolute truth and has revealed truth for us in His Word. The truth in Scripture is knowable. The world, one of the reasons the world is able to get away with telling us lies is because the world itself has been sold out on the idea that there is no truth. And you can't know what the truth is.

And so truth is all personal. And so people become much more easily manipulatable. We've been sold, particularly since the end of World War II, the culture's been selling harder and harder the idea of trusting our feelings. And let that be the measure of things rather than objective truth. Objective truth is revealed in God's Word. But if you throw away objective truth, people become much more easily manipulated. If you're selling something and that's all that matters, manipulation is just fine. But actually, by Christians understanding that denial of truth is from the world, By that I mean the world system, the satanic evil system, Satan himself, and from the flesh, the sin nature, those three enemies of the Christian.

That's the source of the issue, the source of the problem. On page 12 there are some kind of things that have been said in our culture. that have added to the problem. And since Nancy and I have been counseling with people on financial issues, we've seen it. One of them, they're not quite halfway down the page.

Stocks always go up, so keep your money in stocks. This decade has been the proof that that's not the case. We started the decade with the Dow You know up at a peak and then it went into this big bearish drop a lot of people lost their shirts It went up some more and then went into another drop And then since about March it's gone up, you know Lord knows the future Some indications is preparing for another drop so Anyway, that dictum, there's still some people saying that. Stocks always go up so keep your money in stocks. Well, that may be a good place to put it, but think carefully. Don't just take some kind of little mantra like this. The next one down, the next paragraph, since you're going to declare bankruptcy anyway, go out right now and charge anything you might want before I file.

I have sat in the home of a couple where their lawyer was telling them exactly that. Go out and charge up to the hill because you're going to declare bankruptcy. So they went out and bought all their friends and family a bunch of computers and declared bankruptcy. They just went and gave everybody gifts and, you know, buy stuff for the house and just went, you know, go for the gusto before the filing. So that they can take more from these people. So anyway, another one, go ahead and borrow all you can against your house. Your house will always hold its value.

Wink, wink. And you can deduct the interest. Well, scripture doesn't prohibit borrowing. It also doesn't encourage it either. And we'll talk more about that in a little bit. So let's see. OK, we're in chapter three, page 13. The key thing that we want to get across here is not just here are some principles about how to handle your money. I could send you places or give you books that say here's how to handle your finances. But part of our key here is to look at what are the heart issues that matter regarding money. Again, money really doesn't have a problem.

It doesn't. Let me see here. I think I have some. Now here is a $10 bill. There. I'll lay that out. Now does it have a problem? Other than it's folded. It really doesn't have a problem, does it? Do you see a problem? It really doesn't have a problem. So money doesn't have any problems.

It's people have problems with respect to money. And so what we want to focus on here is the spiritual issues, the heart condition, and even when Scripture talks about the emotional issues regarding money. That's really what matters. And in the end, that's what's going to count. There'll be a day when this is nothing. Matter of fact, the way money gets circulated, that'll probably be shredded in the sight of a couple of years. Right? Let's pass it around the table and see how it works. Yeah. You can check it out if you like. I'd like to look at the numbered points there on the top part of page 13.

When the apostles, particularly Paul, wrote to the Christians, we find that they often concentrated first on who we are in Christ, only then providing practical indicators of what that looks like or doesn't look like. The book of Ephesians is a sterling example. You have to go past the middle point of Ephesians before Paul says, do this or don't do that. He starts off with who we are in Christ, right? If we arrive too quickly at a cookbook or a nuts and bolts approach to dealing with money we can easily fall into just doing the things we think God wants us to do out of the flesh. Rather than doing the things God desires because we are depending upon the very life of Christ with our minds operating out of the position we have in the Lord.

Have you ever seen the movie Shadowlands? Anthony Hopkins in Shadowlands plays C.S. Lewis. And, you know, Anthony Hopkins is a phenomenal actor. Anthony Hopkins, who I don't believe for a minute that he's a Christian, he does an outstanding job of playing a Christian.

I mean, he really did a great job. I don't know. He probably got an award for it. I would not be surprised. It was a very convincing job of acting like a Christian. But let me ask you this question. Does the Lord want us to just act like Christians? You see, if that's all the Lord wanted, Anthony Hopkins just did a great job, at least for what he did in front of the camera. I have no idea what the outtakes look like. But that's not what God wants us to do, is it? He's not called us to an acting job. He's called us instead to have his life lived through us. To have his life lived out in us.

So it's not just a what would Jesus do or what would Anthony Hopkins do when he's acting like a Christian. But it is the life of Christ. And so that's why we're not just giving you, you know, here's how to manage your money and here's, you know, use this, you know, technique and that principle. But we're looking at, you know, what does God ultimately want in our lives? And that points to our relationship with Him, our fellowship with Him, His life in us. Christ, as Paul puts it in Colossians, Christ who is our life. Christ who is our life. That's what He's looking for.

The third point there, God is not in the process of teaching the flesh how to do things with money biblically. There is no indication in scripture that God wants the flesh to behave nicely. You know, and that that's what he's in the process of doing. God has no interest in reforming the flesh, reforming the sin nature. in making it act better.

Since we are seated with Christ in the heavenlies, then the Lord intends that we deal with all matters including money from that heavenly position. How does someone who has a citizenship in heaven How does someone who has been crucified with Christ, buried with Him, raised, ascended, and seated with Him, and is now seated with Christ, how does that person handle money? That's the question. As we look at this, we've been going through First Corinthians in our main service. And one of the things that we quoted here at the bottom of page 13, 1 Corinthians 3, 1-3, here he is talking to these believers.

He writes to them, I, brethren, could not speak to you as spiritual men, but as to men of flesh. As to infants in Christ, I gave you milk to drink, not solid food, for you are not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able, for you are still fleshly. Since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly, and are you not walking like mere men?"

He is very much concerned. He doesn't just say, act like this, don't act like that. He's very much concerned, where is your dependence? From what spiritual viewpoint are you living life? And I'm sure they, you know, they spend money and, you know, had money and all that. But where's it getting ripped from?

That's his issue. If a believer has their money all squared away and everything's according to all the right principles, but they're depending on the flesh and walking fleshly, then that's not what God wants. That's not what God's aiming for. On page 14 we have some contrasts that we won't take the time to go into, but it's just the question of the perspective of the mind of the flesh and the perspective of the mind of Christ contrasted.

You know, one of them, God helps me and blesses me materially as I seek to satisfy my aspirations and fulfill my goals in life. I pray to that end that I might be blessed in this way. Nancy was talking to a young believer not too long ago, and he said, well, doesn't God want me to be happy? And Chris Nancy broke out into a chuckle.

It's not that God doesn't want you to be happy, but that's not the principle thing that he's trying to do. You ultimately are being conformed to the image of the sun. And so making you happy, as people would measure, that's not what God's aiming for. The next one, here's number two.

I give God an amount of my time, money, etc. that hopefully satisfies Him and allows me to get on with my life as I see fit. One fellow that I talked to in Reno said that he would talk with a number of believers who would have this attitude. How much of my money does it take to buy God off so that he gets off my back? What's the right percentage that I can put into the offering so that God won't just leave me alone? And so that's their attitude on money. It's a sort of blackmail money. If I give God this amount, then God will leave me alone and everything will be smooth and cool.

How about the next one? I want to know the things that God wants me to do with my time and my money so that I can do them and know that God is happy with what I'm doing. who God made me to be. Well, the next one down, I hope to be in harmony with God in my life so that he is satisfied with what I've done since my ultimate goal is happiness in this life. More than anything else, God wants me to be happy, of course. This was the viewpoint of the friend that, the fellow that Nancy was talking to.

What we have as contrast there, of course, is the perspective of the mind of Christ. What does God intend for us as believers? So, now, I want to go to the bottom part of page 15 and then we'll take a break. Among both Christians and unbelievers, the rate of divorce is somewhere around 50%.

The American Bar Association says that for those presenting for the divorce, 89% rate money as having a primary involvement in the divorce. And Nancy and I have seen that as we've counseled. It's often an issue. When people call for marriage counseling, often money is somewhere in the picture. I'm not saying that they shouldn't, but just that's what we find.

While we would seem to place money issues front and center as a high-priority issue in heading off divorce, Scripture places the focus in marriage in a different direction altogether. We're dealing with money matters and not marriage directly, but there is a place for examining what Scripture has to say about marriage in order to see what this apparently critical matter of money, where this falls into place. When one examines the primary passages for marriage in the New Testament, and we'll give some examples there, they find that money is only minimally involved in the passage, or if at all.

And basically what Nancy and I tell people is money is not really the problem. Let's say this $10 bill hasn't done anything, and as far as I can tell it doesn't have any problems. Money is the symptom of the problem. Money is the symptom of the problem. And so if people tell us they have money problems, they don't have money problems. Money is the symptom of the real problem. It's an indicator. It's an indicator of heart conditions and relationship conditions.

So what do we do when we sit down with marriage counseling? Occasionally we've had instances where people have, you know, I mean the collectors are calling while we're trying to counsel, you know, so then we have to kind of do something to deal with those issues. But typically we don't start with the money issues when we do marriage counseling. We start with what does God say about marriage and then work from there. Because money is the symptom, not the problem. Okay, and we're going to talk more about that.