Lesson 53c (Q 7 and 8)

Number seven, and this is a good one. Shoot. In light of today's climate, man, what place does vengeance have in the life of the believer? Let it go. Let it go. I'm not talking about the movie. Vengeance doesn't belong to us. Well, come on, Alex. We want to take ownership, but it really doesn't help us. Yeah. Why? Because God has, it's his place. Vengeance is mine. I will repay it. Cheryl, I can't see you, but I appreciate what you just said. It is. I'll bring it back. I just. It's fine. I just like seeing you. Here we go. There she is. Sorry, I'm a little punk about video when I'm teaching. Yeah, so, huh.

You never wanted to repay anybody for what they did to you, or even worse, maybe what they did to your kids or what they did to your spouse. Sometimes it's easier to give up vengeance for yourself, but When somebody hurts your people, man, that can be tough. Yeah. This goes a little back to one of my isms that you choose to be offended. Remember, it's your choice.

So when you choose to be offended, you want to have vengeance on a person. You want to repay. So again, I think it stems from your choice of being offended. So, you know, as I've said before, they can do anything to you. It's your choice to be offended. And once you're offended, then I think the natural response is to have vengeance or repayment or some kind of action against that person. So I think it all stems from the first thing of, you know, you choose to be offended and want vengeance.

So it's your choice at the beginning of this. They can do anything to you, to your family, to your dog, to your whatever. It's your choice then to be offended and then that's again where I think this all starts and then you have to leave it in the Lord because vengeance is the Lord.

That comes from the sin nature, doesn't it? Yes. It doesn't come from the new nature. I guess I would, I want to just chat about the gut response. Do you know what that means? But I think you just get hit, you get hit in the face and you don't even have a time and you don't have any wherewithal to consider anything else. You just respond.

You ever been in that situation? Sure have. One time I was in the army and I was in Germany and it was snowing real hard and a guy threw a snowball and hit me in the face, and he made it out of a rock, and I was carrying a big, huge pipe wrench, and the instant he did it, I threw it right at him, and it just went into the snow. But if I would have hit him, oh my goodness. You would have killed him. Just like that, and the minute left was, oh no, what have I done? Yeah. I mean, that really, man. That was a split moment decision, isn't it? Go ahead, Mike. I think there's a couple of things here that we need to look at.

Number one is, is that before the word vengeance is a definite article, the vengeance. Which means he's talking about specific vengeance and that vengeance is the Lord's vengeance and we're not ever to take it out of his hand. It's his job to do that job and it's not our job at all. And so with that in mind, It's less of an issue of overcoming my emotions and more of an issue of, wait a minute, I'm stepping into God's place. I'm the one that takes care of this kind of thing. I don't. So I leave it in his hands where it belongs. Right. A lot of times we take vengeance in the sense that we know, we think we know what is happening or we know what is required in order to, you know, give back what was given.

But in order to do that from the perspective of the Word of God is an infinite knowledge, right? And we don't have that. We don't have an infinite knowledge of what is needed. And so we don't know the motives and we don't understand the full results of what we could bring to others. And so at the end of the day, we're not perfect judges and vengeance requires the the job role of being a perfect judge. I mean, and we're not right.

It's interesting that we says he puts it this way says we are up to abandon the offender to God. And I admitted that before we got to this, you know, again, I think it still stems from your choice of offense, because that's where the vengeance begins. But the other one, which I selfishly admitted weeks ago, is what we'll get to in the next question.

If you're nice to your enemy, it's like heaping burning coals on his head. There is some guttural satisfaction knowing that if you don't respond in a way that they are expecting, it eats them up. You know, there is this, there is some satisfaction in the fact that if you don't do the vengeance and they're expecting you to punch them back or to get back at them or do anything and you're not, you show the love that we've seen through these verses. It's like pouring heaping coals on their head.

Yeah. So if, what if I am offended? It doesn't matter whether I'm offended or not in this verse. The issue is not my offense or whether I'm offended. The issue is who gets to execute the vengeance and it isn't me. Well, and the hard thing about that is, is you're not qualified. And I think that's the big picture is that you're not qualified for vengeance. You, and there's two things, right? There's, There's justice. We believe in a God that is holy. He is holy. But he's not just holy. He's not just just. He's also loving. So there's these two balances that God weighs himself out with.

And we cannot fully operate in that way with regards to vengeance. We do not have the full justice in mind. We do not have the full love in mind. So we have to rely on him 100% because it's his. And this is taking something away from you. This verse is taking something away from you. You do not have the right to to execute vengeance. It's not yours. Yeah.

Can I bring in kind of what we were texting about last week a little bit, like the idea of like between your, well, we talked kind of self-defense type of thing, like protection versus vengeance. I mean, maybe it's just a bit of a different context here in Canada, but I mean, like our government just outlawed 1500 different models of firearms and so forth and stuff like that. And more and more, you're not not even legal to defend yourself type of a thing. So it's just from the in the content, I guess the way the way the conversation comes, you know, sounds to me, in my context is that, you know, all circumstances, Don't like is is defend is defense vengeance or how does how does that?

Okay? Let's focus on that. That's a good. That's a good question is defense defending yourself vengeance. Oh Carol Jim I Think you know, I think we can take out retribution, but we cannot take out vengeance You know retribution is is a whole different ballgame. It's it's different You know, vengeance sees the whole picture. And well, like like Newell says, God's vengeance must require that infinite knowledge of conditions, of motives, of results upon others, which God, the just judge, alone possesses.

We don't possess that. So we can take retribution. And it's closely allied with anger. You know, of course, we're angry. And we can take retribution, but we cannot take vengeance, because we don't see the whole picture like God does. I think there's a difference, too.

Vengeance is offensive. Defensive and self-defense is a different posture. Vengeance is you actively going at somebody. Defensively, if somebody's coming at you with a gun or something like that in self-defense, that's a whole different animal. having vengeance on somebody. Again, offensive versus defensive.

Well, you know, and Courtney and I took this class together, we took the conceal and carry class. And what was interesting about that class is that 85% of it was how to get out of tense situations, how not to be confrontational. And that spoke volumes to me about if you are going to carry a gun, concealed, Your job is not to use it. Your job is to get out of the circumstance that you find yourself in. That's a pretty good way to look at this kind of thing. Most situations you find yourself in, you can get out of if you just walk away, back away.

Well, that brings us back to the fact that vengeance is the Lord's, right? We walk away because, and the reason we walk away, it doesn't mean that this is always the case, but we cannot pay back in a way that is both personally and accurately considerate of what the situation requires. We don't know everything that the Lord knows about the situation. And so we leave these situations to the Lord because he is both just and he is loving. He is holy and he is loving. He balances those two things together. And it's because of His holiness that we trust Him with that vengeance, right?

And there's a lot going on in the world right now with regards to vengeance and a payback. The idea of payback, everybody that has ever done anything to me or my people or everything. And I can sympathize. I mean, Lord, we can sympathize with a lot of things, but at the end of the day, the Lord recognizes and it's our, it's our, um, it's our responsibility, I think, to depend upon him for vengeance, right? I think that's what this verse is ultimately, um, just begging us to do, right?

Well, again, I think that the issue is that it's his work, vengeance. It's not mine. I like what you had to say, JD, that I don't have any right to take vengeance because it isn't something that God has inured to me that I can do. I'm not supposed to. That's not part of any human being. It's not their job to take vengeance. It's God's job.

Yeah. Yes, yes Joanne Deuteronomy 32 35 says Vengeance is mine and recompense for the time when their foot shall slide For the day of their disaster is at hand and their doom comes speedily So what we're talking about there and thanks for bringing that up Joanne that is a prophecy right that's a coming thing and Um, there will be vengeance and we may not see it in our time. And that's one of the things that's really important about Deuteronomy 32, 35 is that, um, things are coming and they're, they belong to the Lord. Yeah. Also, uh, reading in, uh, In Newell's book, he alludes to the fact that revenge can actually forestall God's vengeance. It could cause problems in what God does to that person. That's a rabbit trail I'd love to chase, but I got to go ahead.

Number eight. I'm trying to finish. I'm three weeks in. I'm like Courtney here. You may go four weeks. No, I'm not. I've got number eight. What does it mean to heat burning coals on his head? We've already answered that question. Courtney has like slayed that dragon. That's the part I like. Oh, now we're in. Um, so yeah, what does it mean to heat burning coal?

I think this is a, this isn't a motive, right? This isn't something that we are attempting to do. It's just, it's a, it's almost kind of a bonus. You get a little bonus factor out of this. Um, God puts people in their place and we don't have anything to do with that. It's his word that does it, right? His vengeance, his recompense, just the way that he works with people after they hear his word and after they see his people. not seeking vengeance, not seeking.

We've had this happen this week. We've had a neighbor that returned back to the neighborhood and he was very, he was angry at us for a long time. He was, I wouldn't say he was angry in the sense that he was like vicious or he spoke a lot of words that were ill towards us. But he did, well, not a lot, but he did speak ill of us. And he came back and he's back in the neighborhood and he's divorced now. And he's seeking recompense with us out of nowhere. So I kind of feel like that is what this verse has to bear. You spend a lot of time with somebody, they leave, they get frustrated, whatever, all of a sudden they are like, hey, I'm sorry, are we okay?

And they're not even believers. Have you ever had that happen? No, Jim? No. What about Doyle? Well, I have it happen all the time with Courtney. I hate burning coals on his head every day. I think this has to do with believers and unbelievers, though. Yeah, I agree. I agree. I think that if there's any part of this vengeance that we can be involved in, this is the part.

And that is to show love towards the person rather than repaying kind for kind. And it just burns them to death. I mean, not to death, but it burns them. Like it hurts them because they're like, how can you be what you are? And what's that? And it can draw them in like that. There's two, two options there. It can heat burning coals or they can, they can change their hearts. Um, And I think keeping burning coals leads to potentially a change of heart.

Let me ask you a question right here. One of the issues that runs around in my mind about this, am I to be proactive about this circumstance? In other words, if someone came to me and did something they shouldn't have done, am I to proactively seek them and go out of my way to chase them down until they slow up enough that I can dump these coals on their head? Or do I trust God with what he's doing, recognize that he's in charge of the circumstances and I can afford to wait? I think Alan has that answer.

I was going to say from the next verse, overcoming evil with good is really God's doing, it's not our doing. It's like with Joseph, his brothers meant it for evil, but God meant it for good. Yeah, yeah. Question number nine, Mike, I'm sorry, I have to finish in three weeks. How do we actually overcome evil with good? And Alan just started us off with that, but I want to hear from Cheryl. Well, just somebody does you wrong and you take it, I guess, and you just show them that that it hurts you, but you're willing to show them love and that you forgive them.

Something like that. Yeah. Remember the example that was on TV last year about that high school kid and the American Indian and he just stood in front of him and smiled at him? Is that what we're talking about? You remember the incident? Yeah. That was burning coals on his head. I think it was too. It was a really good example of it. Yeah. Yeah.

It's a high school kid and they were having a demonstration about something and these activists came over and tried to hassle him. And this one elderly American Indian with a drum was beating it right in his face and tried to agitate him. But the kid never, he never wavered. And when he was interviewed afterwards, he said what he was doing was praying for the guy.

So I agree with Leslie, too. I think by showing love, you know, in this when they're expecting a punch in the face and you don't, there's something different about you. And that that is a drawing factor. And, you know, as far as Mike's that you chase him down and do vengeance.

You know, we just went through in verse 19, if at all possible, be at peace with all men. All these things are pointing to our job is not to, you know, pay back, punch, do anything. This is the Lord's, that's the Lord's job to do all that. We're to be at peace with all men, you know, be, you know, turn the cheek, do all the things. That's what we're supposed to do.

And I think that, like I said, we get some out of it in that we know if we do that, I know that happens, because when you do that and somebody's expecting you to get in their face and you don't, they're extremely frustrated. And the frustration on that, but they also, a lot of times, I've had that on drill racing things where they know something's different about you. If you don't act the way the world wants or the way that's in nature, is something's different. That becomes a drawing factor.

I think that's what, you know, this is all meant to be, is to draw people to Christ. You know, if we're beating the tar out of somebody in vengeance, that's a great witness, right? They're really going to want to come to the Lord because we're beating the crud out of somebody. You know, so I think it all fits together. It's just hard for us, by the same nature, when somebody lashes out, to not lash back. Yeah.

It seems like it has to be the new creature after salvation that even has the ability to love. Like, before I was saved, I'd take wrenches and pound holes in my 56 shimmy hood, you know, it wouldn't go all the way through, but I was trying, you know, because I hurt my fingers. But it's different now that I believe in Jesus. I have the ability to love somehow. Interesting. Yeah, I think it has a lot to do with You know, all of the information we've learned through Romans so far regarding who we are in Christ and the fact that we are in Him and with a new life, you know, it's not that we grit and smile and clench our fists and you are going to be as nice as you can in spite of the circumstances.

I really think it's a matter of reckoning. Who am I? in Christ and what would Christ do in this circumstance? Well, if I trust him, I'll respond correctly. If I understand what he, who he is and what he is, you know, he's my life. And he went to the cross without complaining. So, yeah. Yeah. Nature was separated and I'm a new creature.

Well, when Christ rose from the dead, he didn't turn to the Jews and the Romans and said, so there. He didn't do that. His whole agenda was to reconcile men back to himself. And he's the one that had to take on himself the vengeance of mankind. his sinfulness and all of that and which is from his perspective is all someone who's going to commit a sin against you when you recognize that that sin that they're about to commit was already taken care of on the cross.

It kind of changed the equation. Wow. I think the word and I've got just like two minutes but the word overcome is really interesting in this verse. Yeah. Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good. There you go. Yeah. So talk about overcome for just a couple of seconds here. We've got like a minute or so. Overcome.

What does that mean? I think it goes back to what we were talking about in terms of new man, old man, new nature, old nature. The new man in Christ is the only one who is the quote-unquote, the overcomer. That's a good word. Yeah. Donna just said in the class, how about this?

How about you're looking down from your position in Christ, not looking up from your walking around on the earth, you know. You've already overcome in Christ, right? So that's where you, that's where you are. You are looking down from your heavenly position in Christ. You are not looking up to overcome in your conditional personal.

Right. Yeah. So, and like Cheryl quoted, or I don't know if it might've been Alan, quoted Joseph about his brothers. You meant it for evil, but God meant it for good. That's a looking down viewpoint. It also goes to what we've also learned here in Romans. God uses all things. Sure does. That means he hits these situations, all of it, for good. And so the tough times and the good times are all in his hands.

Yeah. Sovereign God. All things. Yeah. Amen. Well, I'm at time, I think. Right, Mike? Yeah. Yep. Well, let me pray and we'll... Um, move on. Hey, before I do pray, thank you all, uh, for joining and for your, your contribution. Yeah. Brian, Jimmy, Miles, all you guys, Cheryl. Thank you, Alan. All right.

So Father, we just thank you for this time. We thank you that the fact that we do not have a responsibility of vengeance, that it is wholly on you. It is your responsibility, and the reason it is is because you are infinite in your knowledge, you are infinite in your ability to understand, and you are able to execute justice and love at the perfect measure, and we know that that is not our responsibility, and so we trust you with that. We're thankful for the ability to look down on our situation and not just up. We're able to look down because we're positionally in Christ and we are with you even now. Our citizenship is in heaven and so we thank you for that. We pray for the next session, the next lesson. I pray that the word of God would be clear and that you would illuminate our hearts through it. It's in your name we pray. Amen.