The Application Of Suffering - Part 1

So today's lesson is a two-part lesson entitled The Application of Suffering. And Roger's given us, you know, five verses to cover here. And as I looked at this very carefully, and already there's been a comment from one of our class members that the handout was short. And I won't say who that was. But anyway, ultimately, the handout is not short in terms of the time we're going to be taking, I think, because I got a lot of questions for the class this morning. And silence is not acceptable.

So I'm going to be calling on people actually volunteer some discussion around the questions, but the obvious place to split this section was between 16 and 17. You've got to come back next week, because I think next week probably will engender a bit more page length in terms of the handout. So I've asked Wayne to read verses 12 through 19 in chapter 4 of the First Epistle of Peter. So, Wayne, please go ahead. Thank you. Wayne Wilson I loved.

Do not be surprised at the fiery ordeal among you, which comes upon you for your testing, as though some strange thing were happening to you. But to the degree that you share the sufferings of Christ, keep on rejoicing so that also at the revelation of his glory, you may rejoice with exultation. If you are reviled for the name of Christ, you are blessed because the spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. But by no means let any of you suffer as a murderer or a thief. or evildoer or a troublesome meddler. But if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not feel ashamed, but in that name, let him glorify God.

For it is time for judgment to begin with a household of God. And if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God? And if it is difficult that the righteous, and if it is with difficulty that the righteous is saved, what will become of the godless man and the sinner? Therefore, let those who suffer according to the will of God entrust their souls to a faithful creator in doing what is right.

Thanks very much, Wayne. So, I think you can see that verses 17 and 19 kind of relate to the previous verses, but take on kind of a whole new theme, and that's what our topic will be next week. So let's turn now to verse 15, but let none of you suffer as a murderer, a thief, an evildoer, or as a busybody in other people's matters.

Don't you love that one? Okay, we're going to be coming back to that one here. Anyway, so why the but? Well, that's sort of easy to say, it's a contrast, right? Yes, Roy, I mean, you taught the last week and it was an outstanding set of scripture that you covered there. How do you relate that to what you taught last week? Well, the contrast here is this is the oldest in nature coming out versus the new. I think that's the heart of the matter, the contrast. Okay, good. I think we're looking at, you know, light and darkness here, aren't we?

We're looking at the Adam source versus the Christ source, where in terms of, you know, the differentiation between what's covered in verse 15 and to whom verses 12 through 14 were written is really quite a different scenario. So, let's look at this in more detail. So, in a sense, I just ask my own question, how does what follows in verse 15 compare to what Peter has stated in verses 12 through 14? So, Roy, You want to further that or do you think we've adequately addressed this at this point?

Well, it's like night and day when it comes from the Lord versus coming from our fallen nature and our own appetites, whatever they happen to be. His appetite, we know from scripture, is so good that the contrast is like night and day. Okay, good. We're going to build on that theme going forward here.

Let none of you suffer contains two verbs. And without being overly analytical, this is a double present active imperative. That means let none meaning let none of you that's a present active imperative and also suffer is a present active imperative. So that means right now, you're responsible, this is something you're going to be doing. And it's factual that this is not something that you should be experiencing in your day to day existence. Why this warning?

Are believers potentially going to be a murderer, a thief, or an evildoer? I'm not going to deal with the last one yet. We're going to come back to that one. But what are your thoughts here? Anyone can fall back into that. OK. Well, we hope not, but I guess. Right. We hope not, but the good nature is still there. Alright, other thoughts on this? Does this relate to the current life of the believer, or perhaps could it have a historical relevance? I was thinking maybe it's just to show a difference, you know, don't be this, be that kind of thing, or, you know, I don't know, just a, there are a lot of ways to suffer, but, you know, don't, Hopefully, we suffer less from sins than, you know, other things. I'm not making much sense, but... Okay, moving on from me. I know what I'm thinking, but it's not coming out, so... All right. Well, we're going to mature this thought process, Carolyn.

Thank you. Who else was ready to speak? Oh, I was going to say, it could have a historical perspective. As Roy pointed out last week, you know, he said that fiery ordeal that was maybe Nero setting Christians on fire, and maybe some of these Christians had a tendency maybe to rise up and have vengeance and murder some of these, you know, Roman soldiers or something. All right, good. We're going to get to how potentially serious the consequences were in the time in which these believers lived. So that's a good point, Andrew.

I'm asking a related question, but is this truly suffering or suffering reproach? And what might suffering reproach mean? When you come under the judgment, whether it may be a Christian judge or a non-believing judge, or in moral Okay. Other thoughts about how suffering may differ from suffering reproach?

Well, wouldn't it be also, you know, all of those things in verse 15 have consequences and sometimes consequences can be pretty severe. And that could be considered suffering, but if you're a murderer, you may be hanged or you may be beheaded or whatever. So there are consequences for any kind of sin.

There are consequences. Right. I mean, in a sense, remember John, the three great sins spoken of in his first epistle, the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh, and the pride of life. How are we all doing at those, right? In other words, yes, the consequences of certain sins are certainly different than others.

But here's the thought that Weiss brings up, and I kind of like this. Some of the recipients of this letter, before they were saved, had suffered reproach as murderers, thieves, evildoers, and busybodies. Peter is admonishing them to let these sins be a thing of the past. So, Marvin, in a sense, I think what you said kind of relates to that. We all drag that old stuff with us, don't we?

And we think back, gee, if I had been saved at the time that some of these, you know, sinful acts had been present, I wouldn't have done them. But the consequences of those are still kind of hanging on. I mean, I don't know about you, but I can relate about things before I was saved that I wish I hadn't been part of. So anyway, all that aside, that may be another interpretation. What do you think of this as not suffering currently as a murderer or a thief or an evildoer?

And remember, for the third time, a busybody I'm going to come back to. Why do you keep saying that, Bob? Well, because never mind. We're all on Facebook. Oh, yeah, Mike, don't go there, please. I'm not on Facebook, but I am. Can I say something? You already are. Go ahead. Me, it's been years and I've suffered for my sin. The reproach. But I, like Miles said, I can always look up and say, uh, the sinless one, you know, and, uh, but still like, you know, we, there's consequences. So. Yeah, there are. And I think what Peter's... Thanks, Mike.

And I think rather than looking up, let's keep looking down. That's where we're positioned. I mean, so therefore, as we learn more about our position, our condition is hopefully influenced by that. But all that aside, I think, again, as I alluded to, which I think you have too, there are things in the past that continue to hang on, but the cross is sufficient.

And Peter's kind of saying, get on with this. Don't suffer because of your past life. And that's what Wiest, I think, brings up. Roger, any thoughts about what Wiest has commented on here? Roger Ailes Just kind of what I was trying to say before, I guess, and it still kind of sticks in my mind is, You know, those are, those are things that you should suffer for.

Cause you know, doing wrong, you, you know, you, people expect to suffer for that versus like, if you're suffering for being a Christian, a lot of us like, well, I shouldn't, I'm doing the right thing. I shouldn't be, why am I suffering if I'm doing the right thing? And if I've got, if I'm on the right track, but maybe he's kind of differentiating those two and, and saying, you know, You think you should suffer for doing wrong, but a lot of times you, you know, maybe you're suffering for doing right, but keep in mind that, you know, that's going to come. You are going to suffer for following Christ. And, you know, even though you don't think you're doing something wrong, but maybe it's, you know, keep your eyes on God because you still may suffer, even though you're on the right track.

All right, Carolyn, this is so important, and I think you've hit the nail on the head here. This is what Roy was alluding to between light and darkness or white and black. I mean, the suffering we're asked to do for Christ is a whole different scenario, isn't it? I mean, and that's our identification relationship, you know, for me to live as Christ and die as Cain. I mean, the idea is our Christ life really brings about unjust suffering from a human perspective. So get off your platform of suffering because of past sin, or even if you would enter into current sin that relates to these things. You deserve to suffer because of that, but get over that and move on. Other thoughts about this?

So I'm reading this and I'm reading verse 14 because it says, if you are approached for the name of Christ, blessed are ye because of Christ, because the spirit of glory and the spirit of God rested upon you. For the first word in verse 15 is a binding word to verse 14, is it not? Which means, as you pointed out in 14, who's the glory, who gets the glory for suffering on his behalf? Yeah.

So, you know, when we even suffer on our own behalf, which was deserved, ultimately, you know, the Lord gets no credit for that. So that's to be put off. That's to be left behind. None of you should suffer as a murderer, a thief, or an evildoer. First of all, you shouldn't be there as believers. But secondly, even in the past, this reproach you continue to carry with you.

And here's a verse that kind of reflects on that, Ephesians 4, verse 28, let him who stole steel no longer, but rather let him labor, working with his hands what is good, and then he may have something to give him who has need. And by the way, we're going to see another verse near the end of this morning's lesson that talks about in someone who is ultimately carrying out bad behavior, that working with their hands is part of the therapeutic response to that. And I think maybe today this whole kind of white coat phenomenon instead of, you know, being out there working with our hands and getting physically exhausted through our workplace may be, in fact, a lack of spiritual opportunity to grow in grace. I'm just saying that as a sidebar. But my, Sharon, my first wife's father ultimately came to the Lord dying of cancer, but ultimately over the years, He felt that he was spiritually more tuned in when he worked hard physically and he was a very hardworking man. So I think there's something this idea of, you know, you know, you did steal, but don't do that anymore, but get out there and work. I mean, there's something spiritually inclining about being physically tired to be being spiritually alert. I don't know if anybody else can relate to that. I think I can a little bit. Wayne, you're nodding. Well, I was just thinking of other examples of that.

A lot of Christians today kind of keep dredging up all the past, and they are not realizing that the cross did take care of all of that situation, even though we would still think of some that might be in prison when they accept the Lord. They still have to fulfill that prison sentence, but the suffering becomes totally different for them as a believer now, rather than what they had done in the past. Okay, good.

Well, keep in mind this contrast between... Was somebody going to speak? I was going to say, keep in mind this contrast between what we're called to in verses 12 through 14 versus what we're dealing with here in verse 15. ... Bob? Yes? The suffer... one type of suffering is identification with Adam and the other form of suffering is identification with Christ, what... what we behold. Right. I think that the new life undergoes a suffering that's to the glory of God, whereas the old man, when he suffers, ultimately that's Adam suffering.

We're called to a different, you know, context of suffering. And I think, as Clark pointed out, you know, we are to be happy when we're approached for the name of Christ. That should lift us up. And that's not something we take credit for, but the happiness is the joy of the Lord being experienced in our day-to-day existence. Yeah, dad, if you don't mind, I have one other translation here that says verse 16, but it is no shame to suffer for being a Christian. Praise God for the privilege of being called by his name. Right. Well, we're going to get to 16, son, but good. I'm glad you introduced us to that version ahead of time. This is great.

There's no condemnation for the believer, but what an unbeliever is suffering for is the condemnation. Yeah, and don't we all have to remind ourselves periodically, maybe it's just I'm opining on my own life, but there is therefore no kind of wretched man that I am. but the end of that, you know, it's Christ that we turn to and that there's therefore no condemnation to those that are in Christ Jesus. And that doesn't give us a license to sin, but the cross is a one-time event only, everybody. It's not going to happen again.

It's a blessing that all things work together for good. Right. The process of being conformed, right? Yes. Just a thought here that has come up in my lifetime. Believers sometimes, and I'm not saying that it's every day, but they will think, well, I can get away with this because God will forgive me.

And they will put sins in this list of sins here. they can just get away with. No, there's a just punishment for those sins, and also there's a discipline from the Lord. The Holy Spirit won't let that continue for the believer. Even the sin of the dead can't occur for a believer who rejects his work in them.

No, but our salvation is secure, and I think the Spirit reminds us of that. We just lose fellowship when we enter into that space, but then that can be restored very quickly. So we're thankful for the fact that, again, we're looked at with no condemnation, but it's not a license to sin. As Paul said, should I continue in sin that grace may abound?

God forbid. No, no, we shouldn't. That goes on. I've seen it happen quite a bit. Not unfortunately, but true. And there's, you know, the whole other situation where some people it's like, well, I can sit all week as long as I go to confession on Sunday. Yeah, well, that's not good theology. But the idea, too, that we can lose our salvation if we're truly saved is also bad theology.

I remember always the three verb tenses of saved. I was saved. I'm being saved and I will be saved. And welcome to Holly Hills. We're learning how to be saved by a new life that's in Christ Jesus. Alright, so what do you make of this list? Murderer, thief, evildoer and busybody. So we've gotten to the busybody part now. Well, you've introduced the next slide, Gail. Thank you very much.

Okay, so we don't need to spend a lot of time here, other than being a busybody and other people's matters. Okay, so what's that look like, everybody? Does that mean I can't be concerned about somebody else's problem and want to know more details about it in terms of how to pray? I don't think so. But I mean, what's being a busybody in other people's matters?

I think part of it is your motive. I mean, if you're just trying to, you know, it's one thing if you want to gossip. It's another thing if you're concerned and you want to pray for somebody and find out, you know, how to pray for them. And, you know, part of it is your motive. Okay, motive.

That's spirit led or non spirit led, right? Bob, can you hear me now? Yes. Roger. Good. Welcome to the conversation. Yeah, Bob. Yes. Okay, good. Actually, I switched things around here. I can't hear myself. But I can. I guess I'm talking right. You are. And your lips may be moving, but we don't see them. Okay, welcome to the conversation, Roger. Would you like to make a comment? Actually, Vani had a comment. Vani, good. I just thought maybe it would be trying to control other people's lives or trying to run other people's lives. That might be part of being a busy body. Okay. All right. Good.

Let's look at this in a little bit more detail. This is the only New Testament use of this term. Isn't it interesting that this is a one-time only deal here? And I'm going to try to pronounce this in the Greek. This is one word. One great word is busy body and other people's matters. A lot to read at this to couples. The emphasis is on the is ally re F is composed.

How's that? That's not too bad. I could you know, I let me see if I can do this. This could be putting me at risk here. But let's see if we can get this done. So bear bear with me just a second. Strong's G 244. All right. There you are. One word in the Greek.

So what comes to mind here? I think, Carol, let's address this in part, maybe Bonnie too. What else comes to mind here? Is it part of judging your, your fellow brother or, you know, in Christ? But at times, you know, the judgment we have is within the body. I mean, the elders are put in a position to be able to judge righteously in terms of what's right and wrong within the body. This body, I think, is probably a little bit different than that.

And let's look at how strong deals with this. And I kind of you know, looked at several commentators on this topic. Strong says the writer seems to refer to those who, with a holy but intemperate zeal, meddle with the affairs of the Gentiles, whether public or private, civil or sacred, in order to make them conform to the Christian standard. Do we ever enter into that space? In a sense, We kind of look at the non-believer or the Gentile world or just the unsaved world a little bit judgmentally, don't we? Is that being a busybody, trying to impose upon them a behavior that the believer through the power of the Spirit is walking in?

That almost sounds like, you know, a lot of even our Christian denominations that want to make people conform legally with even within the body. Okay. A good point, honey. And I think if you read the hungry heart today, placing law on the, on the believer, even within the body could be in, in effect, being a busy body, uh, in a way it's an extended, you know, opportunity to be.

Well, remember it is God who is at work in us. to will and to do according to His plan to conform us to Himself. And each of us goes through a growth stage as Christians. Well, the unbeliever goes through a convicting stage before he believes. And I don't think that we are the ones that convict. It's the Holy Spirit that does that. Go ahead. Okay. But in a sense, You know, the world system, the unsaved, can we expect anything other than the behavior they're exhibiting? And many times it's self-righteousness and pride, isn't it? It is. Which we have too. We do.

And remember, John, that third item was the pride of life, the accomplishments. And what does the world system honor? Margaret, what's the world system honor? Well, it honors intellect. It honors physical beauty. It honors all kinds of physical attributes. That's what it looks at.

And accomplishments, right? Right. Personal accomplishments. So, other than the period and time in which Strong relates here to in terms of maybe meddling in the affairs of the Gentiles, or in Margaret even, as you mentioned, even maybe at today's age or even then in the affairs of people within the church body, I mean, ultimately, this is taking place, I think, even within the group of believers we call the church today, right? So, all right. Yes, Roy? That was a name. Oh, that wasn't Who was that? Yours truly. Oh, my. Good. Okay.

Love covers a multitude of sin. And I think being a busybody isn't doing that. It isn't showing love. Okay, that's good. Yeah. And my new American says troublesome meddler that would imply that it's it's it's done to cause harm to someone else. Also, I will say, thanks, Wayne. That's a good point. Good. I think you've added something there. That's great. All right, let's let's go ahead and move on first.

That's the lines for 11 that you also aspire to lead a quiet life. to mind your own business and to work with your hands as we have commanded you. I promised you there was going to be this other verse that told people who were misbehaving, if you will. to not only be quiet, but work with our hands. So this idea, again, the idea that physical effort brings forth, I think, potentially an opportunity to be more spiritually inclined. Again, that's a side bullet, but it's interesting, we have two verses today that complement the scripture in the areas in which we're attending that relate to working physically. Okay, Clark, verse 16. Yet if anyone suffers as a Christian, Let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God in this name and matter.

We're going to come back to which term is most appropriate here. Yet if anyone suffers, this is a complicated phrase, with a conditional participle connected to an adverb. I don't know. It seems to me like there should be a verb here. If anyone suffers, I mean, if you're suffering, that's a verb form. But it's not that.

It's what, for whatever reason, it's a conditional participle connected to an adverb. But I'm going to turn to Roy to see if he has any insight here as to why this language exists as it does. Well, one of the common things in Greek is to use participles as additional information for verbs, and so it acts like a verbal modifier. It just adds to the meaning of the verbal thought. All right, good. I knew Roy was going to be able to help us there. All right, let's go ahead.

But aren't we expected to suffer as a Christian? Well, I think the verses that Roy dealt with previously indicates that we are. This is part of the Christian experience. And I think we're going to get to this in a second. But the suffering we do today as a believer doesn't come close to what the New Age church experienced. But we'll turn to a verse here, Philippians 129, for to you, It has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in him, but also to suffer for his sake. Welcome to the Christian club.

So what does this suffering for him look like in today's age? Bob, don't you think, though, that, you know, in other parts of the world, this is really true. This is happening. you know, very intense suffering on behalf of Christ. And who's to say, with the current situation in our country, that, you know, we're not going to begin to experience this more.

Well, let me ask you to open up a little bit about the Thrive ministry, which you're involved with to some extent, in terms of what that stands for. Well, Thrive is a ministry that ministers to women who are the spouses, for the most part, are spouses of missionaries around the world. And what Thrive realized was that the missionaries, the male missionaries, the husband of the team, had a lot of support. But the women, many times in these countries that are very hostile to them and their children, The women were getting very little support, so Thrive began this ministry to reach out to these women around the world. It's really been incredible, and now with the internet, because they can in fact communicate with each other, these missionary women, You know, because they're in hostile situations. They're trying to raise their children. They're trying to educate their children and teach them. So anyway, it shows you when you hear these missionary stories, these women, it's pretty amazing what is going on around the world.

And, you know, we forget that. We're here and we sort of forget this. All right, good. That's a good example, I think, of the suffering that we personally don't take place in, but we have suffering of a different nature and under different circumstances. But here's what it was in context. According to Weiss, I quote him. The Greek word for Caesar is Kaisar. And those who worship Kaiser were called Kaiser and Kaiseri animals or Kaiseri animals.

Christianity appeared as a rival claimant to world worship and dominion. And the Lord Jesus, the Messiah of Israel, was looked upon in the Christian church as the one who would someday come back and take the government of the world upon his shoulder. And those who worshipped him as God were called Christianos, worshippers of the Christ, as against the Kaiseronos, worshippers of the Caesar. Rome saw that the imperialism of Christianity was challenging the imperialism of the Caesars, And it was that which served as a propagation striking at the very vitals of the empire. It answered this by 10 bloody persecutions. It meant and cost something to be a Christianos in those days. the members of the imperial cult looked down upon and persecuted the members of the body of Christ. And Andrew, back to your comment related to Roy's teaching last week of the fiery trial, right? This was a fiery trial.

So, if we're suffering today as Christians, and I think we are in a different kind of way, but what Margaret mentioned in terms of the lives of the missionaries, they're clearly suffering in a more obvious way than we are, you know, let's not be ashamed.

So, what does it mean to be ashamed, and what's the source of being ashamed? The comment that I have is that the verses that we covered last week indicate our perspective is Christ is suffering with us, number one. And why should we be ashamed of that? We're looking at ourselves rather than Him. I couldn't add to that any more. Thanks so much.

You know, Courtham and why our dear brother, the Lord, says when we're offended or we're ashamed, I mean, to be offended is a choice of ours. And I think that's the source is obvious. If we're ashamed or offended, ultimately, it's that other nature that, in fact, has responded. We have no reason to be ashamed when we, in fact, suffer on his behalf. the new nature does not encompass an atmosphere of shame in that circumstance.

But the alternative is, let him who suffers glorify God in this name and matter. My question to the class is, why might name be preferable to matter? Rather, in this circumstance, glorify God in this name, and name is probably the literal translation here. Reputation. I'm sorry. The thought comes to my mind of reputation. Well, reputation, right? Or what?

You know, Christian is in the verse, right? Let by the way, if any man suffers, not part of the verse is conditional participle. But yet, if as a Christian, let him not be ashamed. The name we are Christians. And that is a different life. It's identification related. So my final question, we'll cover this fairly quickly, Roger, to make sure we finish today, but we've made four slides, Wayne, fit the topic, hopefully.

So, and is this so difficult for us to accept, isn't it? I mean, it really is the idea, again, of suffering to bring glory to God. It's hard for us to accept that. And why is our suffering needed for God to be glorified? Doesn't His glory exist without our suffering? Yeah, it does. But obviously, this is part of the life that we've come to be accepting of, the fact that suffering will be part of being a believer.

So let's try very briefly with Scripture to address these questions. I'm turning to Romans 8, 16 to 18. The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are the children of God, and if children then heirs, Heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with Him, so it's part of the prescription, provided we suffer with Him so that we may be glorified with Him, I count the sufferings of this present time unworthy to be compared to the glory that will be revealed in us. Something we covered months ago in 1 Peter, in this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, The genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire again, fiery trial, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ. And then finally, in 1 Peter 4, 12 and 13, which precede—well, actually, they were included in the early verses Wayne read today. Beloved, do not think it strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened to you, but rejoice to the extent that you partake of Christ's sufferings, that when His glory is revealed, you may also be glad with exceeding joy." And I'm going to close with the fact, what do you see in these three texts that relate to the glory? It's to God that gets the glory, But so is all of this his future glory to be revealed or is it revealed now?

And I'm going to leave you with that question and say you need to come back next week. Well, Carolyn, you can always go to Mike Doyle's class. No, but it's good that Andrew and Roy and then Roger are teaming up here, then you don't have to be pushed by me every week. All right, well. All right, Roy, would you close in prayer, please, for us?

Thank you, Heavenly Father, for the privilege of, as we open your Word, being the recipients of a message minds to the absolute glory that you want to show through us to the world and us in the process. We sure thank you for that. In Christ's name, amen. Amen.