Lesson 59a

Anyway, Lesson 59, Chapter 15, 1-7. Can someone read that for us? Be bold. Let's go. 15, 1-7. I'll read it. Now we who are strong ought to bear the weaknesses of those without strength and not just please ourselves. Each of us is to please his neighbor for his good to his edification. For even Christ did not please himself, but as it is written, the reproaches of those who reproach you fell on me for whatever was written in earlier times was written for our instruction so that through perseverance and the encouragement of the scriptures we might have hope. Now may the God who gives perseverance and encouragement grant you to be of the same mind with one another according to Christ Jesus, so that with one accord you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, accept one another just as Christ also accepted us to the glory of God. Thanks, Cheryl. You're welcome.

So we're still, it seems like 14 and 15 run together. Maybe the chapter break isn't necessary. They really do seem to run together. We're still, what are we still talking about? The strong versus the weak, and we're talking about the responsibilities of the strong. It's interesting, I think one of the things that differentiates strong versus weak is understanding. Maybe someone can speak to how you might understand what I just said. Alan and Debbie, what's up? I noticed they weren't on here and then they walk in, I'm like, in person. Good to see you guys back there.

So I think the word understanding, why would that be pertinent to the strong versus the weak? It's kind of a pre-question before I jump in. Well, it's kind of obvious that the strong believer understands more about Christ than the younger believer doesn't. Yeah, I agree. Perfect answer, I think. And it's understanding the word, right?

So they have a more clearer and deeper understanding of the word than the weaker. So the weaker we could say is limited in terms of their knowledge and their understanding. Yeah, go ahead. Also, the stronger believer would understand what it was like to be the weaker believer, and how difficult it was, so that would give them even more understanding. So experience in this case, just the Christian experience, the life. Very good point, Kathy.

So moving into question number one, is pressing our own convictions either the human and or the godly way to convince somebody of our being a stronger believer? So I concentrate on in this question, our own convictions. Is pressing our own convictions the human or godly way? It seems that would be the human way.

Yeah, I've been thinking about this quite a bit. So, how do we deal with the younger believer when we know that they aren't thinking about something correctly, but we know the answer, we know the scripture, we know what God has said about it. How do we go about dealing with that? Show them from scripture what? use that. That would be a godly way, right? That's the question.

But I mean, I think you're right, Cheryl. I think you show them the word and the word is a powerful tool, the most powerful tool. Sometimes We like to show them the word and then do our own editorializing about what it says, rather than just let the word say what it's going to say. You've never done that. I have, a lot. Your commentary on your quote of scripture? Right. Yeah. Have them read the scripture themselves, too. Show it to them. Have them read it. Yeah.

That's very, I think that's very wise, Cheryl. I think that it is important, that is our role, right? So as a stronger believer, I think it's really important that we not add the human perspective on things, that we maybe refrain from. And we also, I think timing. So timing is a big deal here. People are not always ready for And I think the only way you can know is by walking with the Lord. What is the timing that you might share something in grace and in truth that is scriptural?

And the more scriptural you can be, the more capable the double-edged sword, right? So we talk about the Word of God is that double-edged sword that pierces. And it's not our words. Even if you're a strong believer, it's not your ability to debate. We like that word today. It's not your ability to convince It's the stability of the Holy Spirit through the the Word of God to really pierce joint and marrow, right?

I've been arguing well not arguing but I've been I My sister and I have been going back and forth about politics. She's a Democrat, I'm a Republican, and I've decided that politics can really divide people and I don't want that to divide us. So when she tells me that she is terrified of Trump, I think I don't think I'm going to argue with her about any more or point out my viewpoint. I think I'm just going to share scripture with her. What else can I do? I can't change her viewpoint.

Right. Yeah. Anybody else have problems like that right now? Oh, big time. Yeah, I've been sharing, trying to share the gospel with Boulder Heights, Boulder Rock in our 70s. Boulder High School, my friend. And one thing is in hours of discussion via messenger on Facebook, he said, the Bible was written by men. Parts were written by women, but they were removed by men. And there are thousands of translations. I see it as a nice book of stories, which helps us gain insight into how to live our lives.

Is that so awful? And my point is that there's sharing the gospel with someone who's struggling to understand it versus that is a bunch of baloney. I don't want anything to do with it. There's that problem too. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I do know what you mean.

So it's interesting that the gospel is not a conviction. The gospel is, according to our belief, it's not a conviction. It's the truth. It's the truth about what Christ did by setting his own life aside. And that's what this whole set of verses is about, is We'll move into question number two maybe. Just to recap on question number one, and Russ, this ties into your comment here. We don't press our own convictions. We share the scripture to Cheryl's point. We share the word of God. We speak the truth in grace and we wait for the timing of God. It's not like we can force anything with another believer.

And so timing is very important. So number two, is the strong believer under a moral obligation? And I put those in air quotes. under moral obligation to bear the weaker believer's burden. What do you think? Well, it's certainly a scriptural obligation. Right. That seems pretty legit to me.

How do you bear the weaker believer's burdens? What would his burdens be? Well, it's interesting that the word that comes into play here is the word ought, ought to bear the burdens. And the idea here is to be a debtor, to be under obligation and bound by duty. I mean, this is a really strong word. So to be, ought to be under moral obligation, to be a debtor, bound by duty. Man, to the weaker believer, That sounds crazy.

J.D., Constable says that all Christians, not just the strong, need to apply this principle of love. Paul was saying that we should be people-pleasers. Wait a minute. Paul was not saying that we should be people-pleasers and do whatever, what anyone wants us to do simply because it will please them. The goal of our behavior should be the other person's welfare, or good, in spiritual edification. We should not please others rather than God, but we should please others rather than ourselves.

That sounds good. I like that. Yeah. It's conforming to Christ to do something like that. He came to save sinners, not just the You know, the best of us. Jesus could have easily pleased the Pharisees, but he didn't. Because they were wrong. But it's our purpose is to draw people alongside and help them mature. Not just be people pleasers. Anyone want to be a debtor? You want to owe a debt to? a weaker believer?

I have a comment that Miles Stanford used to say. I used to call him up all the time and want to know why I wasn't growing faster and becoming stronger and all that other and he would say to me that it takes the Lord a long time to teach someone the truth and then it takes him twice as long to teach that person how and when to give it to somebody else. when that person is ready, he will find that there are all kinds of candidates standing right in front of him.

So, I would I would say that part of this discussion has to do with, you know, being sensitive to the work of the Holy Spirit and growing us up. He's the one that grows us up and makes us strong, you know, when makes us trust him and so many times, we're way out trying. We're way out in front of how we behave ourselves and what we have to say. So, you know, timing, time, I think is a huge factor here because you don't, somebody just doesn't hand you a list of the rules on how to be a strong believer and how to deal with the weaker ones and you just say, oh, no problem, I got this. That's not how it works, you know. There's too much influence from from the world and from my sin nature and from my own ego and all the other stuff that goes into it, I have to be taught by the spirit of God to be self-sacrificing. It's gotta be his life through me and that just takes a long time. Didn't Maya say that after you're saved, wait two years before you talk to anyone because you just need to concentrate on growing yourself?

He would say that. He also said that if you came upon the identification truths and someone taught them to you, it would take the spirit about 20 years to teach you what they really mean. My friend used to say to him, well, in my case, it won't matter. I don't think we can get away from that principle because we How many, how many truly spiritual people have you met in your life?

And if you have met one or two or three, they are people who have been walking with the Lord a long time and have been taught of him and brought along of him. And they're, they're, they're kind of different, you know, they're like Jim, you talked about loving there. They're just, they're lovers, but they're not foolish. And they seem to have a, sense of timing that the weaker believer doesn't have?

Yeah, what I was gonna say is, when I first, my wife and I first, her boss tricked us into going to church out in California, when I worked for Lockheed, and I heard the gospel and got saved, and so all my office mates at Lockheed, all the engineers there, I was just, I mean, we understood if you don't believe in Jesus, you are not going to make it to heaven.

No way. And so I was just thinking, this is important. So I was such a baby, I knew hardly anything. And one of my colleagues that works, he said, Rusty, if you tell me one more thing about your Bible, I'm going to kill you with it. I didn't know how and when to say it. No. He didn't kill me. That's a good thing. Well, you would be killed today, so good thing it happened back then. Yeah.

Are you willing, so here's a question for you guys. Are you willing to give up your own freedom for another believer? There you go. That's a great question. That's great. Whether or not you say yes or no is. Yeah, that goes back to the last chapter, doesn't it? As far as you're giving up things that you think are all right, but they don't. Well, Americans don't give up freedom. That quote was from Miles.

My Canadian buddy. Hey, you enjoy the freedom, too. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. I was going to say on that point, so if all the stronger believers give up all of their freedoms for the sake of the weaker believers, do you end up in a legalism death spiral? I don't know how else to say it. You know what I mean? Because we have freedoms, right?

So I actually think of an example when when you and Les were up here. And I mean, I don't know, I guess you're familiar. Yeah, like with the kind of the Baptist Canadian alcohol culture, like it's, you know, you'd be cast out if you touch the stuff or whatever. But I remember there was one time when you guys told Alyssa and I like, oh, we really like this restaurant, Original Joe's. And then we realized, oh, that's like a, I don't know how you'd find that, you know, they serve alcohol anyway, right?

And it was actually a really important step in our spiritual growth because at that time we're like, oh, well, you know, I don't think that's very good. But years later, kind of able to realize, like, there's freedom in that. So it was a good it was a good thing for us. It was a challenge just to think. About, you know, the what scripture has to say about that and so forth. Yeah, I don't go ahead question Yeah, no, it's a really good point.

So I guess that We have a moral obligation which we agree with that to be To be bound by duty in order to not offend right the goal is to not offend. It doesn't mean that you can't go grab a beer. But you just don't go grab a beer with the weaker believer if that's an offense to them. So you're bound by duty and moral obligation to not create that weakness in the term of their growth. So you want to get out of the way with regards to that.

And again, to Cheryl's point, you want the word to fill their heart and not lay down hurdles and speed bumps, so to speak. So the desire for us as a stronger believer is to not offend. I think that's really the heart of what this is saying. I think it's the actual point of what this is saying because our greatest desire is that they grow.

We come alongside them and that they grow so in the event that we went to you know original Joe's or whatever You know, we wouldn't have a beer or whatever In the in the event that it might offend you at that time, so yeah, yeah Yeah, like I just brought that up because there's actually for us it ended being a really positive Thing because I mean you were teaching us the Bible. We really trusted you knew you were a really mature believer But it really challenged us to think about that at the same time. It was actually a good thing that we recognized the liberty that you had in Christ. And over time, the Holy Spirit used that in our growth. Because at that time, it'd be like, you know, not even the kind of place you'd go into, because they, you know, or whatever, that was kind of our legalist mentality at that time.

So, I don't know, that's just what I say. I think there's a good element to, like, I'm trying to understand, I guess, the difference between bearing the weaknesses of, and also, the weaker believer, I think, needs to see some of that liberty in Christ as well, so they're, I don't know how, I'm not sure how to, So I think there's a really good point there that you make. So as we go about having our freedoms, let's talk about the stronger believer. As a stronger believer goes about having their freedoms, they may, I mean, you don't know how to bear the burden of the weaker until you know what the burden is. Right. So you're going to run into it. Once you run into it, then you're in a spiritual perspective of 14 and 15 of the Book of Romans. So, but you don't know what that burden is until you run into it.

So once you've identified that, it's important to understand how what the impact is on the weaker believer, right? So in some cases, like in the case of Miles and Alyssa, it was a teaching moment for them. And we never got in the way with regards to, well, let's not use a personal example, but once you're understanding of it, it can be a teaching tool for the weaker believer, right?

I mean, or in the voice of what you just said, you know, kind of the legalism that you were operating under. It's like, hey, you know, I don't have to think this way just because it's the culture. Scripture allows for additional freedom that I haven't maybe yet identified.

So I think it's a moral obligation of the stronger to recognize that when it happens and to to be quite honest, to deny yourself. So if you really like going to that restaurant or whatever it is, once you're identifying that it's something that bears heavy and becomes a burden to them, you deny yourself.

It's quite simply the truth, right? Well, J.D., when you find out about these burdens, isn't that at some level of intimacy or close? It's about them. And so that so love really would, would come up for that person. And it would be easier to deny yourself. I agree. And I think when I think I've said that twice. I've got a lot of things on my mind right now that I want to say.

Love is about giving and serving. It's not about getting and using. So the world's type of love gets and uses until it's done with you and then you're out. And that's the, it's like, basically I think of the world's type of love as a car. I like you when you're brand new off the lot. When you start breaking down, I kick you in the tire and I sell you. That's the world's type of love. God's type of love is about giving and serving.

And so when we think about, to your point, Kathy, when we think about denying ourselves, it's not a difficult situation for us. It's a situation of love. It's an environment of love where we're giving and serving in order for their opportunity to grow in the Lord.

And this is a really hard thing for us right now because we all, and Jim, to your point, we all have situations, whether it be your sister or a cousin or a neighbor, where everyone has an opinion about everything right now. And so you're going to have to decide a lot about, even with believers, and this specifically is talking about believers, but even with unbelievers right now, you're going to have to really dig in to who you are in the Lord Jesus right now because love is gonna be at the core of every word we say right now. It's so critical that we as believers watch out and depend upon the life of the Lord Jesus because man, otherwise we would be popping off all day long. I mean, if you're like me and you're running into folks that have another opinion about anything right now, You'd be popping off.

So, you know, these these were, you know, bearing burden, grace and truth, moral obligation, these kinds of things. And I just want to reiterate, we're only through question number two. And we got like 10 minutes here. But this is all about the life of Christ. This is what he did. Did he deny himself? Did he bear the burden? Was he under moral obligation? Was he a debtor? Was he bound by duty? You know, all of the things that come out of these, these Greek words in this, these first couple of verses.

I mean, he's foregoing action. Like he, he can do many things, but he does not do them for the purposes of, of grace and truth and the love that he has for you know, weak believers and even unbelievers in this case. But let's go to question number three. Is love a better attribute than knowledge? Yes. Why? You can't just answer yes or no. You have to explain. Why? I know. Oh, you said you know.

Well, one of the Bible says that the greatest of these is love. So it kind of fits with that concept. But but because I can have a truth that I really, really believe that is true. But if I show it down my Lockheed Martin Prince throat, just not very loving.

All right. Any other thoughts? Go ahead. You're going to have all the knowledge in the world, but if you don't have love for your fellow believer and want to bring him along in the Lord, it won't make any difference. Love, I think, is the most important attribute. Agape love. The concern for his well-being and how he's going to be able to grow spiritually.

So you deny yourself. We have Christ as the greatest example. He denied himself constantly. He had only our interest at heart. That's really good, Joanne. My thought about that was the fact that we come into Christ totally self-centered and we reach out for him as a savior because we need a savior. But when the process begins of spiritual growth, I think at several points along the road, you almost surprise yourself that you actually do or are beginning to care about other people and their welfare, spiritual welfare above your own. I remember the very first time I thought about that, I was surprised because I never cared that much about anybody else to be even concerned about how how they were doing spiritually or how they were doing, like JD said, when we first started, it's always and every time about me and how it all relates to me. As the spirit of God works in us, growing in the grace of the Lord Jesus and beholding his glory, what happens is you start to love other people. to your own sacrifice.

And when it first starts, it's kind of surprising. It was to me, anyway. Yeah. I think one thing that's interesting about this is we've kind of got, I kind of took this, and I called Mike about this question. I was kind of curious about it. And so I took, there's two different angles here.

Can you love without knowledge? And I think the idea, there's a point, I think, that we had in the study of James. I can't remember where it is, but this idea of truthing in love. Yeah, speaking the truth in love. So the idea is that in order for us to correctly love, we need to know certain things. We need to know the gospel. We need to know who he is. And that's knowledge, right?

This is a chicken and the egg thing, even though that's not a good example. But in the event that you are just a seminary knowledgeable theologian versus actually understanding what 14 and 15 of Romans has to say and believing it to be true and coming alongside and loving with the attitude of giving and serving out of the life of Christ, Yes, love is far more important.

Somebody's at my door. Okay. Ding dong. Okay. We just got groceries. But so there's an important relationship between knowledge and truth. But I just wanted to make that there's a caveat there in the sense that we do need the gospel. We do need to understand what Romans says. We need to know chapter 15 in terms of how to bear the burdens. We need to know those things, but they're expressed in love, right?

It's not just a, now I know this, now I'm just going to go do this. It's a person. And I think about, The word knowledge ultimately rolls up to the idea of God's attribute of omniscience, right? He's all-knowing, and that's a good thing. And it's not more important than His all-loving. They work together in the character of who God is.

And so while this is, in my opinion, a little bit of a loaded question and can be answered with love, and Joanne, I really appreciate what you said, love is the most important thing that we express, but our knowledge is a, we have a finite version of God's omniscience, right? And he's given that to us in the scripture, and so we utilize that in order to know how the love is, and what it's like, and how we know the person of the Lord Jesus. I think that's a great point, because when we come into Christ, we read about this word love, and how it's supposed to, and maybe somebody teaches us the difference Greek words for love and so that's understandable. But I think only believers understand or have a grasp of what agape is. And the word of God has to tell us and show us, here's what it looks like. Because we can't look around in our environment and say, oh yeah, there's an example of agape. It's not there. Right. That's true.

A person might think that showing love is just like Somebody said they were trying to cram it down their throats, but considering this chapter and all that we've learned, I was just thinking that it's assumed that as a stronger believer, you will have the knowledge that is necessary. Yeah, you'll know what it looks like and what it is. I agree. Love and knowledge are both critical. They are. Yeah, I appreciate your comments there, guys. Well, let's see, I've got three minutes.

What should I attempt to do? I will add this thought, so I won't jump into question, excuse me, number four yet, but I'll add this thought and then you can comment on it for the next couple of minutes. Grace doesn't please ourselves. What do you think about that? I like that. Well, if you start with Macaulay's old definition of grace, that it's the unlimited and unmerited favor of God, blessings from God based on the totally adequate work of Christ on the cross, if that's where you start, that definition in and of itself is, if you sit down and ponder what he said about grace, it's something that's actually I think foreign to us initially and I don't, it takes a long time in the Christian life to really be receptive from God, the unlimitedness and the unmeritedness of his favor towards us. Because we, the world just doesn't work that way. You have to go out and earn and you can't earn grace. It's really hard. It's a hard principle to learn how it functions and that we do live under it.

Yeah, good answer. Hi Donna. It's good to see you back there. I know you have lots of good thoughts. I wish you could be able to chime in now and again, but I know it's hard to in this situation. But at any rate, it's so good to see all of you. I'm going to pray, and we'll get ready for the next hour. OK, thanks, JD. Yeah, let's pray.

Lord, how we thank you for your love to us and the fact that you communicate your person through the very word of God and that we can study it and understand it and know it, and come to believe it in faith. And so, Father, we thank you for the privilege it is to be a believer and one who has the opportunity to grow in who you are through us. And so, Father, we thank you for the study and the book of Romans and all that it's teaching us. We now pray for the rest of the class and the group, just that they would Take these principles of love that are mentioned here into their lives in this very difficult climate of politics and pandemic and all the things. Lord, might we be lights in the darkness and pray for the next hour just for delivery of your word in such a way that your grace and your truth are made clear. It's in your name we pray. Amen. Amen. Thanks, JD. You're welcome.