First Timothy lesson 11 end

This lesson 11 covers verse 8. So, question number 8, do men and women have different positions before God? It's interesting because this verse doesn't speak about women yet, but it does speak about men. And we know that we're about to get into the role of women in the next verses. a bit in anticipation of that. Miles left off with question number eight. So the question is, do men and women have different positions, and that's the key word, before God? What do you think? I think we're all equal. I mean, as it refers, it refers Well, I was thinking it would refer to mankind, but... So, I don't know. I'm going to let this roll out a little bit here. What does the rest of the class think?

Different positions before God. That would be in the church, right? different positions in the church. It would be in the church. This is for believers. So are we talking about positional truths in Christ or are we talking about the positions we occupy in the body of Christ and as human beings in the body?

You wrote the question. I was going to ask the same thing. Are we talking about while we are here or in eternity of position? Yeah. Definitely two different, I think. Yeah. So this is going to be a question where we get some very specific words in place, right? In typical fashion, Mike didn't maybe recall that he wrote a trick question here. No, I remember. Okay, good.

Well, so let's think about function versus position. So in this case, this is position before God, not position in a role. And what we're recognizing, and will continue to recognize in the remainder of this chapter, is that God does have different functions. And that's the other word that you need to contrast with position in this case, because we are talking about positions before God, not positions within the church. Not like, I have this position, I'm a pastor or I'm a teacher. This has to do with The question has to do with a position before God.

Men and women do have different functions, right? So that's a word that we want to concentrate on in the church, specifically, to your point, Cheryl. This has to do with functions within the church. However, positionally, what is it? It's equality, 100% equality. There is no difference between a man and a woman with regards to their position before God. Yeah, J.D., you'll probably get to him.

Galatians 3.28, there is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. You got it. And I think that one in Christ, right? The union that a male and a female have with the Lord Jesus is exactly the same for a believer. There is no distinction whatsoever. And that's the teaching here. Paul wanted Timothy to recognize that men have a role, and they got stuff to do, and so do the women.

However, there is no distinction, Galatians 3.28, as Courtney just read. No distinction whatsoever. But on the other hand, there is the role and mode of operation of each gender, within the church, and that is different. It is quite different. And there's a lot of turmoil over this. Churches divide over this.

And we're going to get into this more in the next verses, and I'll let that kind of unveil itself as we continue to study together. What we see here is that men are charged with leading in the realm of worship. Let's define worship. What is worship? Is it the instruments? Is it what we do before and after church? Is that worship? What is worship?

I would say it's a response to the worthiness of God. A response to the worthiness of God. Because as we grow spiritually, the Spirit of God begins to reveal to us who God is. On Wednesday night, we're studying Ephesians, and we spent the first five weeks in the first chapter. where this verse after verse after verse about the power of God, the glory of God, and His motives and intentions. And as you start to take something like that in, wow, the God that we have to do with is everything that Ephesians says He is.

The response is you don't have to be told to worship Him, you do. It's like the whole question is, is Christ the Lord of my life? Well, I don't need anybody to tell me that. As a young, brand new believer, it doesn't take very long before I begin to realize, wow, he is Lord. I don't make him Lord, he already is. You respond to it. That was the word you used. Yeah. Any other thoughts there?

So do you think in the church we've kind of got the idea of worship sort of backwards? I mean, if it doesn't include music, it's not worship. I'm curious what the class thinks. It's like my father-in-law said one time when we were out here, for a wedding of my niece that we were over at their church and they were practicing and they have a praise band. And he said, these people think God is deaf. Because the music was so loud, you know. But that's what the idea of worship is today.

Yeah. Well, I'm going to put Ingrid on the spot. You have a very special talent and a gift to lift up musical worship towards the Lord and response of His worthiness. I'm curious what your thoughts are. Music could be a part of it, but it's not exclusive. I mean, I think it involves prayer and fellowship.

I mean, just everything we think about, how we express ourselves. It should all be done to the glory of God, I guess. Everything. Love that. So what we're saying is that God is not deaf, and it does not have to be loud, and it does not have to include instruments or even song.

Worship could be done at any place, at any time, and it has to do with the response to, Mike, you said the worthiness, and I think that that's a really great word, also the holiness, right? So the fact that he is holy, he is set apart, he desires our attention, he desires the intimacy with recognizing who he is in character, right? And that could be any, particular character attribute. David in the book of Psalms, we're going to talk about lifting up holy hands in a moment. There wasn't any particular character that didn't go unnoticed in a psalm. They were all recognized and in ways that were prayerful. Like you said, Ingrid, they were in silence. They may have not even been outwardly and done together.

I think when we talk about do men have different positions before God, we've defined the fact that the roles are different, but the worship is the same. But men are to lead in that realm. the church body into a state of worship, meaning we want to spend time responding to the worthiness of God, but it can be done personally as well, and that is because your position, both male and female, are equal before God. All right, question number nine.

Where does this worship and leadership happen? So the question says, does the word everywhere mean indiscriminately every place for the church? A symbol and worship can Again the verse, therefore I want the men, thee men, in every place to pray, lifting up holy hands without wrath and dissension. So the question is, and maybe the background might be helpful, when you worshiped in a Jewish context, where did you worship at this day and age when Paul is writing to Timothy? Where? In the synagogue is where they... Well, that would be the Jewish side of it. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. And that was very formal, wasn't it? There was a time and a place and a person that led that.

Here, all of a sudden, Paul is talking about the openness of worship and prayer, that wherever Christians assembled, there could be worship. That was radically different from their context. And not only just the Jews, but also all of the pagan religions were very formal in that. You couldn't just gather a group of folks together and pray and lift hands and recognize and respond to the worthiness of God, you had to formally be at a place and a time in order to do those things.

How does that relate to us today? What other kinds of challenges do we see in organized religions where you have to be in a certain place at a certain time with a certain person in order to do this? I think of Catholicism, Mike, we always pick on your past, but true. I had a neighbor who, she wanted to go to mass to do confession and also to worship, supposedly, but she got there late and so it didn't count.

Yeah. Yeah. I think a parallel verse to this is when the Lord, I think it was when he spoke to the woman at the well, that the Lord seeks those who will worship him in spirit and in truth. And that reference means that the Jews, per se, and of course, in Mount Gerizim, where they were worshiping, wasn't in truth.

And it was in soul, maybe is the way to say it. It was a soulish kind of worship rather than a spiritual kind of worship. And so not that, how do I say this? Because we're spiritually alive, we have the capacity to behold the glory of the Lord. and because God is spirit and we are, then we can know him, we can understand him spiritually, which leads to worshipping him in truth. So truth is a really interesting part of the equation, because a lot of times, if you're subjective in terms of your doctrine, the attitude that what I think is true is more true than what really is true, then I'm not involved with objective truth. Therefore, my worship is probably faulty in that sense.

Christians can assemble on a beach, in a forest. I remember Miles during COVID. They had to conduct secret assemblies of the church because they weren't allowed to gather. It wasn't in a building. It wasn't at a brick and mortar. They went down, they call them coolies. The coolies are the little valleys that run through that portion of Alberta. But that's what they call them, coolies. And they would get down in a coolie and pull all their big trucks together and they would worship the Lord together. They would assemble even in secret during COVID. That's my only context for kind of like secret assemblies in that sense.

But the fact is that when Christians gather together and they assemble themselves, Paul is saying, I want men to lead them in worship in any case whatsoever where Christians gather together. So everywhere, everywhere means any place, in every place that you gather. And where two or more gather, we know that that is an assembly. That's the way they do it in China. It's the way they do it in a lot of places that I'm not particularly familiar with, but China very likely, any kind of communist regime where Christians are not allowed to gather together.

Yet, I think that this verse gives us a lot of encouragement in the sense that any place that you can assemble yourself, you can worship. Didi, a couple of the references on this verse, I think, help out a little bit, too. In John 4, 21, this woman, well, Jesus said to her, woman, believe me, an hour is coming when neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. And I think that's setting up that, you know, from the Jewish mindset, that Samaritan, all that.

It wasn't going to have to be in a synagogue or someplace. It can be anywhere. Further ones, the references were 1 Corinthians 1-2. to the Church of God, which is in Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who are in every place, call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. So, any place, anywhere.

First Thessalonians 1.8, for the word of the Lord is sounded forth from you, not only in Macedonia and Acacia, but also in every place your faith toward God has gone forth, so that we have no need to say anything. So basically saying, any place, anywhere. It wasn't at a specific place. It goes with just what you're saying.

It's any place in a forest, in the middle of traffic, anywhere you can worship. No, those are really good contexts. And I think that that would have been just such a shocker to the Jews at this particular point in time. And those that, even that were Christian converts at that point in time, that would have been, I mean, so radical.

Like, God is that personal that we could do this anywhere? It's always been so organized and there's always been a function to the way that we conduct our worship. What do you think that that does to our spiritual lives, the everywhere side of things? It really releases you from a structure to an attitude of heart. and a gathering of believers. It makes you think of where we're gathered, the response that we want to have towards God when we're gathered together.

It's a totally different concept than having to be in a place at a time with a person. The other thing I was saying is it really puts puts the personal aspect of it, the unity, the intimacy that we have with the Lord and God the Father, that we don't have to be in a group to worship. We can be anyplace, anywhere. It can be by yourself as opposed to a formal meeting, although as we meet here, it's a more formal meeting.

But I think it really points to the fact, and that's why I think the woman at the well, or as you say also, what a mind twist this would be to the Jews who just think of their fear of being thrown out of the synagogue. That was the ultimate that they would be thrown out of the synagogue. Now there is no need of the synagogue. And you're telling these people, there's no need of the synagogue. Wait a minute. I've been fearful of being thrown out of the synagogue my whole life. And now you're telling me I can worship anywhere? And I think Samaritans, who, gee, we've been locked out of going up to Jerusalem to worship. And now you're telling me I can worship here? I can worship anywhere?

That really is just a mind-blowing thing, I think, in the contemporary sense, when Paul was issuing these thoughts. I was thinking too of 1 Corinthians 6, 19, do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit in you? So, you know, we are the ones that house the Holy Spirit. It's not a special building that we go to. So whenever we are together, you know, we've got a group of us that can worship wherever just because the Holy Spirit lives in us and he calls us a temple.

Yeah. I think that's a good point, Ingrid, because we are. The place of worship is where the Lord resides. And if He resides in us, then that's the place. And with every believer, you know, who is indwelt by the Holy Spirit, makes Him a temple. So the place is in every single believer. Well, that brings up a really cool point.

I mentioned forests and things like that, but what if it's a really bad place? You know, like a really bad place? Doesn't matter. Because of 1 Corinthians 9, 16, like Ingrid just said. Yeah. Yeah. It can be wherever, you know, because use the word sanctuary as in the person, not in where the person is. Yup. Yeah, every place does not exclude any place. So, I think it's pretty clear there.

So, question 10, let's talk about the phrase, lifting up holy hands. That's obviously something that, you know, David did in the book of Psalms, he lifted up holy hands. There's a lot of challenges around what that gesture as a person means. But here, I think the word holy is really important to understand before we understand hands, because I think we know what those are.

Holy is not, it's not the word for being set apart to God. This has to do with, what do you think? It's not being set apart to God, meaning because of our identification with the Lord, He has imparted His holiness to us. He has recognized us as holy because we are in His Son.

But what does this word mean in this context? Holy hands. What do you think? Are these sanctified hands? Well, I wrote in my notes about the word Hagias, which is when you talk about the holiness of God totally separated unto himself. And that's not what this word is. So. So the question for the class is, what does this mean? What is holy hands? Any thoughts?

Okay. No, I was just thinking like kind of a heart posture before God of dependence and a heart posture. I don't know. It doesn't really make sense. But it doesn't have to be actual hands. I don't think I mean, lots of people express themselves that way.

But if you're not into that, it's just kind of where your heart is in dependence of God. That's a really good start here. I think that this has to do with your experience of where you are. This is an experiential holiness. This is not a positional holiness.

This has to do with your posture before the Lord, exactly. And it doesn't have to do with necessarily your hands, per se, but where you are in your fellowship with the Lord. Are you in fellowship and therefore offering holy hands in prayer? And certainly the lifting up of hands is very much the picture and it's the posture, but it's also a heart posture.

I love the way that you put that, Ingrid. How do you get to a place where your hands are unsoiled by sin so that men can offer up their hands in leadership of worship? How do they do that? How does this function? Verse 8. I want men in every place to pray, lifting up holy hands.

What do you think that posture requires? J.D., the thought I had here is something that I'm trying to incorporate into what I do when I teach and preach, that you take a minute before you start just to get right with the Lord. If there's anything between you and Him, this is a good time to confess or whatever. so that there's no impediments to what the next step is, either learning, teaching, even playing music or whatever. This is an event that is between you and the Lord. It's about like the Lord's table. And you don't want to go into that exercise with some sin hanging around. Yeah. Have you ever done that? Me? No, not you. Everyone.

Have you ever kind of rushed into teaching or you're leading worship or you're involved in a worship service musically or any kind of what would be represented by worshiping the Lord, and realized, I'm not even right with him. And I rush right into this thing, and I'm faking it until I make it, and then I'm like, whoa. I just totally missed the boat there. I want to let some of you others speak, if you've ever had that experience. I've had a lot of those, to be honest.

When I first started teaching back in the Baptist Church, when Les and I had just met, I didn't understand about my posture of heart. Certainly, I prayed, but I didn't understand about 1 John 1-9, I didn't understand about having fellowship with the Lord and walking into a scenario where I was worshiping or teaching, and I just did it. And I didn't really you know, I didn't really know.

But this verse definitely has a lot to teach us about how, you know, and the words are lifting up holy hands, but it has to do with how we stand before the Lord as we go into these things. You know, and your stance is positionally certain. Your fellowship cannot be certain, and that's up to you, and that's up to your posture, your attitude. We use the word response to the worthiness of God. And when we respond to God in that way, it puts us in our place in a good way. in a very good way. We're creatures, we're saved by the grace, and we're earthen vessels, we're ambassadors.

And I think that that has a lot to do with the context of what Paul is teaching Timothy here. What do you think about, you know, sometimes just that on the spur Is it legitimate to go before the Lord and say, Lord, if there's anything between us, let's settle it now, but not really knowing?

I hate to tell you, J.D., I sin more than I'm ready to admit. I hate to tell you I do the same. That's another thing is trying to get yourself right before the Lord for the sins that you know. What about the 50 others that you didn't know about? Again, I get worried about putting so many guardrails on this that I have to be perfectly in line and perfectly at rest and perfectly at this before I can worship the Lord.

He's given us the freedom to come anytime, anyplace, in whatever condition I'm in. If there are guardrails on it, then it's up to me. I can't talk to the Lord unless I have these five things that are right. Yeah, I would definitely say the guardrails have to do with the posture of your heart. I love that term.

When you are in service to the Lord, you may not have all your sins confessed. You may not know what those sins were. The guardrails should not—I don't see anything in Scripture where you have to like lament over this. This is a recognition of who he is, a response to who he is, and a humility of heart to serve.

And Question 11 actually gets into another aspect of that posture and that thinking. Question 11 says, without wrath or doubting. And I started to do some looking into this a little bit more, and I'm just going to go ahead for time's sake, list out some thoughts here. This wrath and dissension, right? So, or doubting.

What would prayer, because we're talking about men in every place lifting up holy hands, to pray? Prayers in those days, and we don't maybe experience it at Holly Hills, but I'm sure that there are places and churches where this kind of wrath and dissension exists in the minds of those who pray and lead. But some examples would be harboring anger or resentment while praying, right? So, I'm praying, but I'm angry about this thing.

And it's okay to be frustrated, but holding resentment in those kinds of situations is not the posture. Praying with vengeance against what you perceive as an enemy. Like, I just pray you teach that guy this thing, you know, and it's out of an anger or a resentment. Or maybe towards God. There's an anger towards God, and there's a circumstance where you're praying even, you're angry with him.

That's not worship. The central context of this verse excludes wrath and dissension among the church. It excludes those kinds of creature perspectives on feelings with regards to anger. A way that would divide, I think, in the context of teaching Timothy, it would be, don't pray about things that would divide our assembly. What do you think about that? You've got one minute. I wanted to hit up more on the doubting part.

Because I always, you know, from James, James 1, but if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God who gives to all generously and without reproach, and it will be given to him. But he must ask in faith without any doubting, for the one who doubts is like the surf of the sea, driven and tossed by the wind. For that man ought not to expect that he will receive anything from the Lord, being a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways. It's not that you pray and you get the exact answer you want, but it's that you, by faith, trust in the Lord that whatever's going on, i.e., Microsoft and email and all that, that He's in control of it. I don't doubt that. doubt the Lord, you're unstable and you're going to be tossed to and fro by doubting the Lord. What specifically would you be doubting? I think in a lot of ways, doubting that he's capable of answering my prayer, doubting that he's listening to me, doubting that I can wait for his answer.

There's a whole bunch, I think, wrapped up in that. I think it's just by faith, believing in him. Again, that he's omnipresent, omnipotent, everything, all of his attributes, his love. He still loves you. Don't doubt that. I think it's all wrapped up in that doubting that I'm going through a trial and he's just maliciously doing this to me. No, he loves me just the same yesterday as today before the trial.

I think when you doubt, then you're driven, you know, man, he doesn't love me anymore. What's going on? What have I done wrong? What have I, you know? And you get in this circle of, you know, spiral into more doubting and more, you know, anger maybe at God, as you said, JD, and those things.

I think it's just, you know, trust in him. You know, fight the good fight of faith and believe. Don't doubt. Yeah. Great thoughts. Good discussion this morning. I'm encouraged by it. Let's pray. Father, how we thank you so much that we can gather together anywhere and respond to you in an attitude of worthiness and respond to you for who you are and who you have revealed yourself to be. And we're thankful for these verses here and Timothy and what you're teaching us together as a body at Holly Hills here. I just pray that our heart posture would continue to be directed towards you in a way that is focused on purity and in the way that we know at the time and that our doubt would be excluded because you are 100% trustworthy. And we know that because you are a Savior who loves us and you've revealed your grace and your love to us in a way that is special to each and every one of us. And we thank you for that. We pray for the week ahead that we would honor you in these ways that we've learned today. And it's in your name we pray. Amen.