First Timothy lesson 17 end, begin 18 (at 9:30)

I'm going to be finishing up Lesson 17, the last question. Courtney slacked and didn't get it done. I'm just kidding. And then we'll jump into Lesson 18. So, question number 8 of Lesson 17, should both elders and deacons be tested before being appointed. And what's cool is you don't have any of them in the room, so you can say whatever you want. I'd say yes. All right, well explain. Oh, I think it'd be like anything else.

If you're going to be in a position of leadership, you've got to prove yourself as being qualified. How do you prove yourself? That can be the tough part, is how you portray yourself, how you live your life, what you say. How you portray yourself, I think that's really interesting.

Go on. Ignore a condition. I can't hear you very well. You're looking more at condition that stems from a position. Oh. And how do you connect those two dots? By faith. So you're looking at, let's just back up here for a second. Should both elders and deacons be tested before being appointed? We're backing up to a place where we as a Christian community are seeing a consistency between A and B, meaning position and condition.

Is that what you're saying, Mike? Yeah, more or less. Yeah, that word proved. Anybody know what that means? Proved. So let me read the verse. One second. My notes didn't have this verse in play. Okay. Verse 10. That's where we're at. 310. These men must also first be tested, some translations have proved, then let them serve as deacons if they are beyond reproach. Beyond reproach. Okay. So we're talking about proved.

What does that word mean? How, how does somebody, how does it, how does a Courtney or a Mike or any of the other elders? Yeah. How did they get proved? By the things that the Holy Spirit takes him through. Is it in your eyes that you, do you prove them? Who proves them?

God approves them. I think you're right, but yeah, Les just said consistency. I have this definition, to be put to the test for the purpose of approving and having met the test to be approved. It's kind of not Webster's, I'm not Courtney, but nonetheless, you can see it, right? The Christian community can see it and they know Yeah, they're consistent with themselves.

And they're not being questioned. Meaning, we don't really know what that guy's up to, kind of thing. Yeah, the Greek word is not helpful. I could try to pronounce it, but I did write a few Greek words for future questions here. And I even listened to the pronunciation. And I'm not going to be Mike and play it during the middle of class. To be put to the test for the purpose of approving and having met the test.

And I think that's something that we have to think about, right? So whether it's a deacon or an elder, you know, a lot of the Christian community doesn't have the ability to even write the test and know what that means. But I don't think that's the case for us.

I think at Holly Hills, it's easy to tell if there's consistency, if there is, a relationship between their position and their condition, just like you said. Mike, I think that's really smart. Not to build you up, but just to say that that's a smart comment. Um, it doesn't refer to a formal examination, uh, but a general judgment in the community.

So if the church sees it, then there's an opportunity for an elder, or in this case, a deacon, to have been tested and approved. Is that fair? Yes. I know in the past year, deacons were appointed, but I think there was a certain thing that they had to go through. Not like the elders, but I mean, that's been so long ago, I kind of forgot. Yeah, I think there's a doctrinal process that both elders and deacons have gone through.

I'd have to lean on Mike more so on how that works. The issue here is that the testing is not, I mean, there's probably a doctrinal test in terms of, do you understand what the scripture says? Have you spent enough time? And that's the other aspect of this, is that an overseer, as well as a deacon, must not be a new convert. They have to have spent time walking with the Lord. Um, and I, I just, I continue to go back to what Mike said, like connecting the position with the condition. And is there a consistency there?

And that this whole word, uh, blameless beyond reproach unaccused. What does that mean? You ever been there? You ever been blameless? If you aspire to be a deacon, any one of you, even a deaconess, we're going to talk about that in a minute too. Being unaccused? Well, you shouldn't be doing anything you could be accused of. You should be living your life to the best that you can. Yeah, my wife is telling me she said things line up. with who you say you are before the Lord. You mean there's no wokeness? Well, that's against the law now, Mike. Yeah, maybe that's a good thing. Yeah, I think it's a good thing. I guess I'm on record for that anyway.

Okay, so the answer to question eight at the end of lesson 17, should both elders and deacons be tested before being appointed? Yes, it's not formal. It's a general judgment of things lining up. And I love the way you put it, Mike, is position and condition are consistent. All the time? Probably not. We're all human. However, there should be a pretty consistent pattern there. I think that's fair to say. Would you all agree? Yes. Okay.

Lesson 18. Who wants to read verse 11? I'm gonna, I'll probably follow up with verse 11 from the King James, because this is a little controversial. But if you got NASB, give me verse 11. No, this is the New King James. You got King James? Yeah, New King James. Okay, we'll read that one. I would like to hear what it has to say.

Likewise, their wives must be reverent, not slanderous, slanderers, temperate, faithful in all things. Okay, and who has the New American Standard? I guess I have it. New American Standard, chapter 3, verse 11, women, not wives, but women, must likewise be dignified, not malicious gossips, but temperate, faithful in all things. Which one is right, wives or women? Well, in this, as the book contains, there is a callous It's italicized. Their wives. Their is italicized. And must is italicized. In other words, they were added. The translators added this.

So is that all women, whether they're wives or not? That's my question for you. It's the first question. Does this verse refer to wives or deacons or to women in service themselves? What do you think? No, I put wives of deacons. That's what I put. I don't know.

Mm-hmm wives are women. I'm gonna read you some of the notes from Macaulay He says this has several things in its favor first the word likewise was used to separate the overseer and the deacon and that was in verse 8 3 8 and It follows that here it separates the function of selected men from that of selected women. The word is also frequently used to introduce the second or third in a series. That's a little deep. I'm just going to keep moving on.

Second, the word woman has no personal pronoun with it. These women are not designated as belonging to anyone. In the Greek, these women don't belong to a deacon, meaning they're not wives, possibly. This isn't very controversial, but it can be interpreted in two different ways. And I hope to lead us to a place where we can make a decision.

Third, it seems unlikely that deacons' wives have unique qualifications when there is no mention made of overseer's wives. So they don't talk about, well, Paul in 2 Timothy doesn't talk about the overseer's wives. He mentions women here, and the Greek wouldn't necessarily assign it to having belonged to a deacon, meaning a wive. And then fourth, Romans 16, one designates phobie as a deaconess. Remember phobie?

So yeah, the word, the word wive, or wives or woman is yune in Greek. I looked it up. I'm really proud of myself for that. G-U-N-E in Greek, but yune pronounced in Greek, I suppose, but it's used both for wives and a woman. So the question is, are these the wives of the deacons? Is this your Ingrid? so to speak? Or is this Cheryl? It's both. That's interesting. Explain. Mine says either their wives or their deaconesses or both. Yeah, I think that the context here doesn't put it in marriage. Right. However, it still applies to your point. Right.

I think it should be translated woman, not wife. Mine translates it the woman likewise must be worthy of respect and serious, not gossipers, but temperate and self-controlled, thoroughly trustworthy in all things. That's what it says. The challenge for a lot of expositors is, is this a wife of a deacon, or is this women in general, in the context? Well, since their DHEIR has been supplied, I think it has to do with the whole gender.

I agree with you. And here's four reasons. I'm reading from my notes here. So let's do with the first one. Even so, so if we look back, um, to the King James, uh, the new King James that you read. Sure. So even so, uh, that word introduces a second or third in the series here. The series here is of church officials. Even so, that's interesting. We'll come back to that one second.

There is, this is getting deep, there is no possessive pronoun in the Greek, which would be needed if the women were the wives of the deacons. So that kind of leans us a little bit more towards women in general, which still includes all women in general. Third, The four qualifications which follow correspond with appropriate variations to the first four required of deacons as regards demeanor, government of the tongue, use of wine, and trustworthiness." So what he's doing, Paul, here in 1 Timothy 3, is he's including women in the same general qualifications as deacons.

Not in the exact same office, but of the same demeanor, of the same government of the tongue. We're going to talk about that. There's a word here that really specifically gets into that. And then fourthly, this is a section dealing wholly with church officials. That we know. So we've got elders and deacons.

And then here, the reference is to women who hold the office of deaconess as phobia in Romans 16.1. Do we think that's right? And then here's the real big point. Whether wife or deaconess, And we know that Deaconess was referred to in 16-1.

We don't see that very commonly in our church. But she must be dignified in the same way that a deacon would be dignified. In verse 8. I would say that the same rules or guidelines should be applied to the woman as well as to the man for any kind of position of leadership in the church. Well, that's a lot better way than I could have put it. Yeah, that's where I'm at on this verse. I don't think that there's a difference in terms of gender when it comes to being dignified, governing your tongue, mastering your tongue. use of wine, and being trustworthy. I think it applies to both. All right, let's go to question number two.

Explain what not malicious gossips, but temperate, faithful in all things mean. I don't know if you've ever been around anybody that has a loose tongue with regards to gossip or, you know, not temperate or faithful in all things. But this is... Malicious is harmful. Okay. What is gossips? This is an interesting word in the Greek. Storyteller. Okay. This is Diabolos. It literally translates, she devils.

It refers to slander, to telling people false things about other people. And I thought that was interesting because the moment I saw that Greek word, I was like, okay. I've seen that and it relates to Satan. And the way that I went about kind of understanding this was, what did Satan do in the garden? He told false things. And that's what Paul is warning about here in verse 11. And malicious gossips. slanderous things, the telling of false things about people. And again, it goes back to Diabolos, and that's a demonic, not demonic, but a satanic perspective on speaking.

Is that fair to say? Does it refer to women as a correct translation? Is that... You have to speak up just a tad, sorry. Oh, I looked away from the mic, I'm sorry. No, you're good. Is that a general statement to wives? I think it's to women. To women. You wonder why the translators put wives in there, translated as wives. So then it's assumed that the wives have been converted. I don't know. getting technical here. No, you're fine.

So I'm going to go with women in general, which includes wives. So it's all inclusive. And in in this particular case, the not malicious gossips, but temperate faithful in all things is applied to women. Universally. Believers. And this has to do with their tongue, a tendency, potentially.

There's a contrast here, and we're going to get into that, but the temperate part, that's the opposite of malicious gossips. And then finally, it tacks on, the end of it, faithful in all things. And I think that the being faithful in all things, what do you think that means?

Before I tell you what I think? Well, respectful. Okay. Respect to what? Gossipers, I think don't have enough truth to hold on to. So there, you know, that's where you get the she devil. Respect is earned, not demanded. And a lot of people will use, say, the law to apply to that person's life rather than seeing that all things work together for good for that life. We're supposed to build up the body, not destroy it.

You guys agree? Yeah. I'd say yes. I would too. I think here we're seeing a woman who manages her tongue. because she has a position before the Lord, and her condition is a reflection of that. She also accepts and fulfills the responsibilities the Lord has given her, as opposed to rejecting. What are some examples of rejecting those responsibilities that the Lord has given a woman? I think of feminism. I think that there's a lot of the transgender side of things that, you know, I reject who God made me to be. I speak against what the Lord has made me to be. I think about all those things. That's today's world.

I don't think that Timothy and Paul were dealing with all of that, but as you carry this verse through, reading verse 11 again, women must likewise be dignified, built up, careful, not malicious gossips, but temperate, Faithful in all things She accepts her responsibility she knows exactly what the Lord made her to be and she excels in it Any problem with that sounds good All right Well, we'll move to question three, unless there's any other further thoughts there. All right, verse 12.

This is a repeat. Deacons must be husbands of only one wife and good managers of their children and their own households. Verse 13, for those who have served well as deacons obtain for themselves a high standing and great confidence and faith that is in Christ Jesus. So question number three, is this the same requirement before the elders? Go back to verse two. A one woman man. We talked about that. Yeah, go for it. I'd say if there's a standard that we have to uphold for a deacon, it has to uphold for the elder as well. You guys agree? Yes. Yeah, I do too.

The wording is the same. The wording is the same. Let deacons be one wife's sort of husbands. What about the word ruling? One says manage. Manage, okay. That's not bad. That's a good synonym for that. I have in my notes to be over, to be super intended, to preside over their family. Same thing as an elder. Should be no difference. Okay. Well, we've got five minutes. I'm gonna hit question number four.

What will a deacon acquire by serving properly? They acquire a good standing for themselves and gain much confidence and freedom and boldness in the faith, which is founded on and centers in Christ Jesus. Yeah, you mentioned high standing, I think, or maybe I just read it in parallel to what you're saying.

The word acquire today means a little bit more, because what do you think of when you think of acquire? Obtain. Obtain. Obtain what? Maybe you obtain knowledge? You obtain position? Do you think it has to do with rank? Obtain rank? Could be. I have in my notes an assured position in the esteem of their fellow Christians. And then also, we know that among the many who possess the same rank, whether in church or state, some from their character and abilities gain a standing and others do not. What does a good standing look like for a deacon? I think we've got some good ones.

They're consistent. Their position is connected to their condition. They are who they say they are. And as they serve, they do it alongside women that are not gossips. They are faithful. And they've acquired a good standing before the community of believers that they serve. I think that's essentially what's happening here. Agreed or not? Agreed. Yeah. It leads right into chapter... Verse 16. Go ahead and read it.

And great and important and weighty, we confess, is the hidden truth, the mystic secret of godliness. He, God, was made visible in human flesh, justified and vindicated in the Holy Spirit was seen of angels preached among the nations, believed on in the world, and taken up in glory. Yeah, that's interesting.

All of these positions that we're studying, whether it be the elder, the deacon, or the woman alongside and respected is to the glory of God. The very last part of that verse that you said. So there's a word in this verse that says degree. To what degree? that this relates to, and I think that this is a position of trust and influence in the church.

So when we look at the qualifications that Paul is laying out for Timothy, he's explaining how things work, how they function, and this is a position, to the degree which they hold, obtain, this is a position of trust and influence. So as we look at those relationships that we have with our leaders within the church, are they trusted? Are they able to influence from, and I just love what you said at the very beginning, Mike, does their position connect with their condition? Can we trust them? Does it match up? So, well that was question number four. Next week we're going to get to number five.

Any final thoughts before I pray? Okie doke. Father Howie, thank you for laying this out for us. We know that you have an order to the way that the church is to be run and how it's to be managed. And it ultimately falls under your entire umbrella of grace. And so we're thankful for that as well. Pray that we would maintain a steadfastness to your word and that we would hold it as the highest standard to how we behave and how our leaders behave. And again, we just thank you for loving us so much that you told us how to think about these things and that we can learn about them. And it's your name we pray. Amen.