First Timothy lesson 29 end 30 begin

So we are on lesson 29, and maybe I always like to do it. Yeah, 10, that's what I think. So I want to do, I always like to just get the, the context and read the passage. We dissect things so many times in words and just little tiny phrases or whatever. I'd like to reread kind of just to get a flavor for what Paul is telling Timothy. And again, this is a pastoral letter to Timothy about how to run the church in Ephesus in Asia Minor.

So, we're looking at 1 Timothy 5, 17, I'll read 17 through 22, and this is really about the elders and how to handle that. Remember, Timothy's a young guy in a church with elders, older people, and Paul's giving him counsel on how to do this. Remember, he said, don't let them look down on your youth and all these different things, and now he's, again, kind of dealing with an elder who has sin and how to deal with it.

But this is all about the elder. So verse 17. The elders who rule well are to be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who work hard at preaching and teaching. For the scripture says, you shall not muzzle the ox while he is threshing, and the laborer is worthy of his wages. Do not receive an accusation against an elder except on the basis of two or three witnesses.

Those who continue in sin rebuke in the presence of all, so that the rest also will be fearful of sinning. I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of his chosen angels to maintain these principles without bias, doing nothing in spirit of partiality. Do not lay hands upon anyone too hastily and thereby share responsibility for the sins of others. Keep yourself free from sin.

So I've gone over a lot of that about rebuking and all the different things and how he's supposed to handle this. And now, let me get down there. So we're now to, what do the words lay hands on suddenly? Is that the question? Or am I off? Sometimes I switch and the numbering gets off. Is that the one, question 10? Okay.

So, again, in the King James Version, it says, and this is verse 22, "...lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be a partaker of another man's sin. Keep thyself pure." Or the NASB, "...do not lay hands upon anyone too hastily, and thereby share responsibility for the sins of others. Keep yourself free from sin."

So, looking at this, there could be two interpretations here on the advice to Timothy, or it could be a dual instruction, where it means two different things. So, the first one is the words lay hands suddenly. It has to do with the restoration of a sinning church member back in the fellowship. This could be one. So it's really talking about somebody who's sinning and how you deal with it, or the second, Interpretation is laying hands upon anybody to be an elder. So it's kind of two different, two different interpretations. So the first one is to lay hands suddenly had to do with the restoration of a sinning church member back into the fellowship of the local church.

The laying on of hands always signifies identification. The saint upon forsaking, forsaking a sin is again identified with the local church. In verse nine, we see 19, we see the accusation. In verse 20, the conviction and the sentence, and in verse 22, the restoration to church fellowship. Exposers say Timothy is told to restrain by deliberate prudence, the impulse of mere piety.

So basically one of the notes was a hasty reconciliation. tempts the offender to suppose that his office cannot have been so very serious after all, or his offense, excuse me, cannot have been so very serious after all, and smooths the way to a repetition of the sin.

So this one is basically you're laying hands on him and restoring him really quickly. Like, he did a sin, okay, you're great, get back in here, get going. So don't do that quickly. Make sure you understand what this sin is and the gravity of it, and to make sure that they know that you're not just putting them back in immediately.

As they say, one interpretation is that if you do that, he's like, well, that wasn't so bad. I can do this again. Or the visual to everybody else is he got away with it, and well, we can all get away with this. And there's really just a slight slap on the wrist, and you're back in. So that's one interpretation, where they're basically saying this laying of hands means you restore him too quickly.

And that quickness is a chance for him to repeat or others to do sin, because that's not really that big a deal. Where really, if you look back at all the verses we've said, this is important. And Timothy is really saying, this is a great offense because when this, especially when the eldership is in sin, that infects the whole body. Whereas a little leaven infects the whole lump.

It's the same thing. You really want to take care of this problem. You don't want to just gloss over it. And that's one interpretation is that you don't want to gloss this over, get him back in. He's, yeah, it was okay to see you, Fred. You're great. Come back in. So that's one interpretation.

The second one, and I think this was from a colleague, the laying on of hands refers to the practice of ordination or recognition of elders, Acts 6.6 and 13.3. Timothy is to be very cautious in the selection of elders because he is held responsible for making good choices. When one recognizes another as an elder, there's a certain sharing of responsibility of their actions. So the second interpretation is basically just getting an elder in quickly. He's a new believer or he's just in the body and you suddenly recognize him as an elder.

You don't want to do that. It's like here, you have to be around a long time and know the body. The body needs to know you before you'd ever be in a position of eldership. So it's really saying, don't do it quickly. The body needs to know the elder, and the elder needs to know the body.

Don't do it, because if you do it too quickly, you may not know that guy, or what his past is. Maybe he's kind of holding back on something that's really obnoxious. He's an aggressive guy, but he's really sweet when he's kind of getting ready to become an elder. But he's got an aggressive, you know, angry continents or something. So it's really, you don't want to do that because you really want to find this guy and see him for a very long period of time before you recognize him as an elder.

So that's the second interpretation. So thoughts on which you think, what you think. I think it's a dual, I think it's both. I think it's for restoring somebody, but it's also for, I've always mainly thought it was laying hands upon an elder early, that somebody who's just in the body six months and oh, he's great, oh, he's so good, let's put him as an elder. That's mainly how I've seen it. I haven't really looked at it until we studied this one, that it could be in the restoration of the elder. So, thoughts? situation or situations in mind as he's writing this, something that he's encountered.

I don't know if you know what that is, but he's probably thinking, I think I agree with you. I think it's cool. Yeah. We're kind of dealing with something. Is your mic on by the way? Green light. Yeah. We're kind of dealing with something, not from an elder perspective, but just from a newer wanting to be quick to brought back in but behind the scenes we know all these other things about them so as you were reading this I'm thinking about that. Not from the elder perspective. Well even into the body. The concept can be to the body too.

You don't want somebody suddenly taking over teaching Sunday school or teaching too quickly. I think it's the same concept is there. You don't want, oh it sounds like a great guy, let's have him teach. Can you put him into teaching right away you don't know anything if you don't know that much about him. You know, I don't think I started teaching for quite a while here. And it's to see, and how you sit in class and you can get a flavor for what they know or meeting with them, you start to figure it out. But you don't do it quickly. So I think the same thing is from teaching, as well as eldership, all of this. If you don't know somebody, get to know them before you put them in positions that could impact the body. Yeah.

I think that what goes along with that is that the principle that the Spirit of God is really the leader of your local body, and he's the one that raises up people for certain deacon, elder kind of thing, and it becomes a situation where it's recognizable, and the person who would be an elder candidate maybe wasn't even looking to be an elder, he's just a guy who, according to these verses, he studies, he works hard, he's a good teacher, and the guy really has a heart for the Lord and the people that he serves. So he's an elder candidate, rather than, we have a tendency, I think, in Christendom today, that if you're, a successful business guy or a leader of some kind, well, he'd make a good elder, not necessarily. The other thing I want to say is that I can't think of a time in my being at Holly Hills where someone had, a member had sinned and left, but then repented and wanted to come back. and how you would handle it. I can't think of any time that that, at least since I've been around, that that actually happened. Yeah. I think in today's society, I think people, it's hard for them to understand restoration. I think you're almost now, everybody thinks you're branded. You have the big scarlet letter on your forehead that once you're done, you're done.

And that's not what the scripture says. It's supposed to mean restoration. That's what you're supposed to do. All of this is meant for restoration, repentance and restoration. But today's society doesn't do that. Once you're labeled or whatever, it's awfully hard to humbly come back and go into that restoration process. Because, I mean, it's everybody knows it. And you come back. And so it's just, I think today's society just, you're not, we're not geared for that. You know, merits works.

Well, it's just, it's just the, the people, people don't want to be labeled and can, or they think they're labeled forever. Oh, you think it's, and you know, for a sinner, yeah, the guy was saying or whoever, and they're just always going to be like, well, Mike sinned. We're always going to think of him as the guy who sinned. And that's wrong on the body's part. I sinned. I know it. Thanks. I'm just like, I'm growing in grace. And I sinned too. But I mean the continual sin and that. But it's really hard in today's society for some reason.

Well, you know, Courtney, one of the problems when it comes to local church and restoration is that when people, when there's some sort of falling out, there's a church two blocks down. And so nobody really bothers with being restored to a local body. They just go on to the next one, typically. I do agree that restoration is important.

I do take this passage. Typically, I've taken in terms of the second option there that it's more to do with the, you know, selecting of elders, laying hands on them that way. But I hadn't actually really ever considered the first interpretation there that you'd given. So, I mean, I think I kind of take it as, well, you know, you're stuck with this guy once you, you know, select them as an elder. So, you know, be careful about that. Don't rush into it. Yeah, I agree. And I said the same thing. I hadn't looked at it.

I always thought it was a second interpretation until I started looking at it this way. And when you look at, that's why, again, context. Context, this is all about, you know, addressing an elder who sinned. So I can see how the first interpretation could also be there, too, after studying this now. It's like, well, yeah, that makes sense, too, in context with relation to a sinning elder.

But I think it's a dual purpose. You don't want to get him back in any quicker, but you also don't want to put somebody in really quickly. So I think it's a dual interpretation or purpose that Paul is getting at. Yeah, that's good. Yeah, I think there's also, to your point of letting back in too quickly, I think can kind of cause some maybe distrust among the flock. that kind of like the leadership, oh, they're looking out for each other, or they're kind of more above the law than we are, kind of a... Yeah, it can be misinterpreted that, you know, yeah, these guys can get away with murder, you know, sin, and they can brush it under the carpet quickly and go on, whereas they'll come down on us very hard. So yeah, and again, it's also for the elder that, you know, again, that he skates easily and figures, this isn't so bad.

It's also kind of, I would say, hard, and I hate to use the word balance, but just the concept of being the forgiving party, right? So the offender needs the forgiveness for restoration. And we're told we need to be forgiving. So how does that play into the timing of all this?

Well, and that was part of the, And I think, I can't remember if I got this, that we're not supposed to show any partiality in this. It says you're not, in the verse, do not lay hands upon anybody too hastily or thereby share the responsibility of sins and keep your, I think it was the up above. It's about showing partiality.

You're not supposed to, you know, we're gonna get Fred. We're not gonna, you know, this is supposed to be in a, unbiased, he's sinning, two or three witnesses, and we take care of this. And it's got to be meant in restoration. You don't want to axe the guy unless he just will not stop sinning. Then I think you have to address that. But with two or three witnesses, and you go through the process with forgiveness, that's your purpose is to restore.

And that's what, again, I don't think most of today realizes. People don't realize that's the purpose. It's kind of like when we get child training. When we get trials and child training. We don't like that, you know, but it's what's meant for our good. So I think this is another one where the restoration is meant to bring them back, not to just punish them and grind them into the ground. It's to bring them back into fellowship.

I think you need to have a a body of believers in that environment that really does understand the grace of forgiveness, that they're all sinners, but they're saved by grace, and it isn't an issue of, well, you don't have A sins, B sins, and C sins, and if you do an A when you're out, B, we'll think about it. It's one of those things where, it's like picking an elder, you can tell if someone, sins publicly, whether they really are repentant about it or not. It's like the guy in Corinthians that Paul said, put him out. But then the second letter says, bring him back in because he's done everything. No, it's not. Because the problem you have being a Christian is that you're going to get caught. Yeah. Yeah. The Lord will make sure you do. And so it isn't a matter of whether you escaped or not. It's a matter of...

So it's a good thing if you got busted about your sin. Actually, yes. And so there's a period of which there's a for the person like this man in Corinthians, where he went through a process of being shunned. When he had repented and turned his life back around, probably moved out from his mother-in-law's apartment. That's a good thing, yeah. Temptation not there, yeah.

And was soliciting be back into the fold, but Paul says, you gotta let them back in. Yeah, they were, in the partiality and bias, they were harsh. I think they were harsh on him, and he repented, done everything, and they were a little bit harsh, and he's, Paul chastises him a little bit for that one, like, no, he did everything, let him back in. Yeah, I was thinking, you know, if the sin too is with Jesus and the women caught in sin, you who are without sin cast the stones. Sure. And they all disappeared. Yeah.

So, I mean, we all have sin. What this is addressing is a continual sin. a pattern of sin. This isn't just a one-time or little thing, or one here, one there, sorry. That's 11 within the body, if you tolerate. Yeah. But I mean, this isn't just a sin, it's a pattern of sin, and no repentance. And the three witnesses who've come before him, there's no repentance, so now you have to take action.

So it's different than just a sin that, you know, I saw you screaming at somebody on the street or something or whatever, you know, unbecoming or something. That's one thing. But if it's continually, then yeah, you address it. Any other on that before we get to the last question?

Good, so what does Paul mean by share responsibility for the sins of others? So that again, verse 22, do not lay hands upon anyone too hastily, thereby share responsibility for the sins of others. Keep yourself free from sin. So what is Paul telling Timothy here? How's he sharing in the responsibility of sin of others? How would you share in the sin of others? It's kind of an odd thing. It sounded, when I first looked at it, it was like... I think it's related to the laying on of hands. You're showing a willingness to identify yourself together with them in some way, right? Yeah.

And I think, again, if you do it too hastily and they've come back and they're sinning again, you're sharing in that, that you allowed him to come back in before he really was truly repentant. So you're now sharing in that because you, the other elders, acted too quickly. And now he's sinning again.

And the same is true with someone you recommend for eldership. If you aren't quite sure, there has been some talk, don't be too hasty to let it play out. And if you don't, I mean, what Paul is saying to Timothy is that you're just as responsible for the sin as they are because you're tolerating it. If you look at, I'm trying to think of where it was, I think it's in Romans where Paul says, you know, yeah, these guys are sinning, but what really upsets me is, in Corinthians, what really upsets me is that you're tolerating it.

That's a bigger sin. Yeah. Well, I think it was in Romans 1 where, you know, if you allow this, you know, the sin, what is it? you give hearty approval to it, you know, by allowing it to continue and you give hearty approval. And so it's... But in that context, you're trying to add somebody on to do something worse than you, so you can look better. Yeah, yeah.

Push them down while you get pushed up, right? I looked at Constable on this one, the warning about thereby share responsibility for the sins of others. I like what he put, a person who appoints a deficient candidate to office, again laying too early, the second interpretation, or it could even on the first interpretation if you bring it back too quickly. So a person who appoints a deficient candidate to office shares his guilt when his unacceptability surfaces.

Since Timothy occupied the seat of a judge, he needed to stay free from sin himself. As in 1 Timothy 4, 6 through 16, Paul's concern about the sins of others led him to insert a short aside to Timothy about the importance of ordering his own life, specifically maintaining his purity.

So again, it's kind of, you don't want to share. If Timothy does this, what's it show upon Timothy? Imprudent. Timothy, what are you doing? So the sharing is like you did it now. Timothy, take your time. Take your time. You don't need to do this quickly.

And so he's basically sharing is that if you do it, Timothy, and it comes back, the guy starts sinning, or you put an elder in who is not qualified at all, doesn't know the body, and you put him in there, and he's a failure, you're sharing in that responsibility because you were the person in charge who laid hands on this person. So any other thoughts on that?

Yeah, in 1 Corinthians 5, Paul tells the Corinthians, but now I've written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother who is sexually immoral, covetous, an idolater, a reveler, a drunkard, or an extortioner, not even to eat with such a person, for what have I to do with judging these also are outside do not judge those who are, do I not judge those inside, but those who are outside God judges. So he's very strict about that kind of thing. And he, in the Corinthians in particular, he makes it very clear that the responsibility of believers regarding who's in their midst, the body of believers and those who they even associate with, have to be like, should be like them. Yeah. You know, it kind of was mine in this one. This is what your parents told you, but it's biblical. First Corinthians 15, 33, do not be deceived.

Bad company corrupts good morals. Don't hang around with those guys. They're bad. Don't hang around with them. There's actually biblical that, you know, don't hang around with that group. They are just trouble. So don't, and you know, bad company corrupts good morals. So again, if you're tolerating all this, it's gonna corrupt things. So if you have an elder who's still sinning, can't, doesn't repent, doesn't, and you're doing all this, you're gonna share in that responsibility of the sins. Anything else?

Otherwise, Mike, I guess you can start the next lesson. How much time do we have? Seven minutes. Six minutes. You can probably get two or three questions. You think? I can probably talk about the first one. So we're on lesson 30 now. That's correct. OK. You do your homework? No, I couldn't find your download. You'll have to leave. Should I? He's not letting you back in. So it looks like in Lesson 30, it looks like Paul sort of changes directions and I'm not so sure that he does because he He tells, I'll read the verses, 23, 24, 25.

No longer drink water exclusively, but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and frequent ailments. The sins of some men are quite evident, going before them to judgment. For others, their sins follow after. Likewise, The good works of some are clearly evident, and those that are otherwise cannot be hidden. So kind of interesting stuff.

When he says, in 23, no longer drink water exclusively, what's he telling Timothy? I mean, it's really pretty clear. He says, don't drink so much water. Isn't that what he's saying to them? Why? He's telling them not only don't drink so much water, but also substitute a little wine. And just so that we don't have a long discussion over this, the word for wine here means a fermented drink. So it's alcohol. So my first question was, is Paul telling Timothy not to drink too much water and substitute wine? Answer, yeah, that's what he's telling him. Why is he doing that?

To drink water or be a drinker of water means you drink too much water. And we know in our society, you know people that read it, oh, if I want to lose weight, all I need to do is just drink water all the time. What happens to their body? It gets full of water. But you got to get rid of the water. What do you get rid of at the same time? You get rid of electrolytes and things in your body that are good for your body because you always are having to get rid of the water. And you're washing good stuff out of your body.

So it isn't that water is a bad thing. It just means excess of anything. But you can say here that Timothy, he's not ordered to abstain from water. And that's a good point because You remember earlier when we were talking about avoid men that forbid you from being married and have all these rules and regulations in order to demonstrate your holiness, he's saying, look, you got a little problem with your stomach, drink a little wine. In those days, wine was a medicine. He's not talking about a guy who's got 40 cases of wine in the back of his house and he's drinking all day long. He's talking about this is for medicinal reasons. In other words, Timothy, don't be so strict about not drinking wine that it affects your health.

See, that's kind of what, I've never heard that he was like drinking too much water. I've never heard that, you know. He didn't have like drinking fountains. Well, and the water wasn't all that great to start with. What? Yeah, the water wasn't all that good. I was going to make some snide remark about that. Well, you're a water guy. Yeah, it's like I wouldn't touch the water anyway. But I've always thought it was like what you just said was that it's more, you know, maybe he was only drinking water and not because he didn't want to have the stigma of, you know, you're drinking, you could be drunk. You know, it's kind of like for Christians today that, you know, ooh, that he had that same kind of feeling.

Because the warnings about being drunk and that are in Paul's teaching. So I think it's maybe Timothy was avoiding it and the alcohol actually can help your stomach. And a lot of these things, it's kind of funny when you look at them, a lot of the Old Testament things for hygiene, Two thousand years, four thousand years later, we're freaking out. That's pretty wise.

And I think a little wine is for the stomach. And most of those, they didn't have whatever, Pepto-Bismol or anything like that. But I thought this was just a warning to him that just don't, totally cut off line. Yeah, well, don't align yourself with the ascetics, is what he's saying, you know, who don't do this and don't do that and don't do this and don't do that kind of thing.

And it's okay. You know, it's, well, what was, we were talking about a few years ago about grace. And what was the principle that Paul used about whether he did something or not? Remember what it was? You can do all things as long as they don't master you.

The problem with alcohol is that if you have a propensity, it will master you. We all have known people in our life that alcohol masters them. And even within the body of Christ, you know, it's an issue. So it's one of those sins we're talking about. And it's very difficult to deal with someone who we put the alcoholic label on. But at the same time, some of the coolest people I know are recovering alcoholics because they know what it's like to be at the bottom. And they know that they are sober by grace. That's what they know. And they're really cool people.

So the principle here is, you can attribute some of it to the aesthetics, but he's really telling Timothy, go ahead and drink a little wine for your stomach. That's really what he's saying. It's okay to do that. Well, it sounds like he was Yeah. Some of the questions I thought were common. What's that? He drank the bad water. Stick to the water. You forgot that you're supposed to drink upstream, not down. So. So. One of the commenters I was reading said, we'll do this question and then we'll quit.

Is this verse a little startling? He thought it was. If it belongs here, it can be explained only in the continuation of the thought of verse 22. What did verse 22 say? Verse 22 said, lay hands suddenly on the man, neither be partakers of another man's sins, and keep yourself pure." So when you follow the next verse up, it can be startling when he says, well, maybe drinking wine isn't pure.

No, it's fine. To the effect that Timothy is to keep himself pure by not giving aid or comfort to aesthetics and imperiling his own health by adopting rules of abstinence. See that? Now, I'm aware of the fact that there are people that misuse substances under the guise of It's medically good for me. I smoke marijuana because it's good for me. No, it's not. So we're at time. What about edibles? You know, it's interesting about those. I think the jury's still out on those.

I think that in some cases they really do help people with pain management. But it's like all pain management, you know, you put something in your body, it has a residual effect. You know, now Kennedy's telling us you can't take too many Tylenol. Well, some of them regular medications are just worse than... Well, I know a guy that was an alcoholic, and when he got sober, he started to smoke marijuana. He just went from this to that. You know, what's the difference? So, anyway. So we'll pick up at question three next week. Let's close.

Dear Father, we thank you for your grace. We thank you for all the blessings that you shower on us, especially your word and that you help show us and teach us what you mean specifically and how we are to walk in the light of your grace and conform to the image of your son. And we pray in his name, amen.