1 Timothy lesson 14 cont.

Alright, we are in lesson 14 of the Timothy class. Oops, wrong mouse here. I think we got through three questions last week. I'm going to go back and we'll read just the last section, which is kind of for men and women. The first was about wanting God's desire to have all men come to know the truth and kind of a general prayer or general guidance. And remember, this is a pastoral letter from Paul to Timothy. and how to basically organize and run local assemblies or churches. These are just guidance for how to run those.

I'll begin in verse 8. Therefore, I want the men in every place to pray, lifting up holy hands without wrath and dissension. Likewise, I want women to adorn themselves with proper clothing modestly and discreetly, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments. but rather by means of good works, as is proper for women making a claim to godliness. A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet.

For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. But the woman will be preserved through the bearing of children, if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint.

We're going to get into a little bit of that and just the different translations, actually, which we'll get into on this one. I think it's important. There's a real distinction here between how the different translations translate verse 15. And the question in verse 15 is a woman already a saved person. From the New King James, the verse is, nevertheless, you'll be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness with self-control. The NASB says, but a woman will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint. So a lot of differences in the wording there and how they were translated. So we'll get into the words you used in the next question and how they differ and what the meanings are.

From the context of the verses, Paul is speaking in reference to a believer or an unbeliever, and then why? Is he talking to unbelievers or believers? Believers. Why? If they continue in faith, love, and sanctity with moderation, it's an already done deal. They're sanctified, they're set apart. Could you say that of an unbeliever? No. sanctified and they're talking about their in-faith love and with self-restraint. That would not be the description of an unbeliever. So it's important. So he's talking about believers here.

So again, when you look at this verse, we'll see in the next question, nevertheless, she will be saved in childbearing or never, but women will be preserved. So again, it's kind of, this can be misinterpreted. And I think when you see saved, you think, well, she's saved by what? By childbearing, and this, and holiness, and sanctity, and this.

So I think the translation is important. And I think the King James, well, this is continuing our echo study with Bob Wolford. And there was differences of opinions of the translations. Of course, the New American Standard is the most literal translation of the Greek, so we got into that for you who weren't there. Bob Wolford went into how it's interesting, even on the New King James, when they translated King James I, said, OK, we're going to translate and we'll get this into the King's English. But he gave it to Oxford, Cambridge, and different sections, and they translated differently in some of the translations. But then, the New American Standard, and this is what Verne used to say too, it's the most literal translation. of the Greek.

So, when you get in these word things, it's like, what's the one, that the branches will be cut off, the vine dresser will be cut off. It really meant to be lifted up. And the way the translation in most of them is that the branch will be cut off. Well, how can a believer be cut out of the vine? Well, that's a horrible translation that we get stuck with. And that creates all sorts of havoc just because of the words that they use in the translation, not what the Greek actually says or means, that a vine dresser will lift up, not cut off.

So it's just a bunch of word stuff that we'll get into, and there are lots of words in this section that we have to look at. We'll go to question five. The word to say that's sozo, which is a Greek word, it has many meanings, lists some of them. Does anybody know or look at anything on the Greek about the word and what it means? Because there are several, and I'll quote some things. So if you didn't, I'll go through some of them. The Greek word to hear is sozo.

From Zodiatis, sozo has many different uses. Basically, the general definition is to save, deliver, make whole, preserve, save from danger, loss, destruction. So that's the overall category that it has. But interestingly enough, in Zodiates, it says, Sozo occurs 54 times in the Gospels. Of the instances where Sozo is used, 14 relate to deliverance from disease or demon possession. In 20 instances, the inference is to the rescue of physical life from some impending peril or instant death. The remaining 20 times, the reference is to spiritual salvation. widely used, but in very different aspects.

Like I said, deliverance from disease or demon possession, rescue of physical life from some impending peril or instant death, or references to spiritual salvation. So we have to look at what it is in this instance. So, it is used in the New Testament of healing of a sick person in the sense that it is saved from illness. That's in Mark 34. These are just a couple of the instances where they're using the different, from sickness or demon, from where you're going to be killed, basically, or imminent death. It is used in the sense of being saved from drowning in a shipwreck in Acts 2720.

Paul uses it in relation to being saved from becoming entangled in false teaching, and that's in 1 Timothy 4.16. In our present verse 2.15, the word is used in the sense of being saved from something other than from an unsaved condition.

So, again, when you look at it, if you use it as saved, You're just being saved from something. So, I like the NSAB, N-A-S-B translation. It says you're being preserved. So you get away from that question of salvation in this verse, that there's not an aspect of salvation here or being saved. You're preserved.

By taking the verse 14, meaning salvation, what would this verse imply about salvation? If you take it to salvation, what would it mean? If you look at verse 15, nevertheless you will be saved and childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness with self-control. What would that imply? Oh, I said it would imply that women without children are not saved. Yeah, you could take that if you're saying it's salvation, yes.

What's another aspect of it? made whole. Made whole? Maybe a woman feels more complete when they've reproduced. Well, we'll get kind of that into the preserved section, but what if this is salvation? What would it mean when you say, nevertheless, she will be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness with self-control? What does that mean, if they continue? It's a workspace system. It's a workspace system. It means salvation is based on what you do. So can this mean salvation through childbearing or whatever you're doing, or faith, love, holiness, self-restraint? If they continue, that means salvation would be up to you and what you do.

So if you take this verse like that, it can't mean salvation. It can't mean that in this verse, nevertheless, you'll be saved. That's why, like I said, I prefer NASB, which she's preserved. So it takes out any question about salvation. We can get into what preserved means, but it should be clear that salvation in the latter sense can only be had through faith in the atoning work of the Lord Jesus Christ, never by good works or by anything which a sinner might do. So this is not about salvation. It has nothing to do with salvation. Now, we'll get into the next one. What is something which childbearing saves the woman from or preserves? Nevertheless, she will be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness with self-control.

What she preserved from? I'm going to have a question on this one because I had Mike's notes and my big question here is ask Mike because I didn't know what you're going through on this one. So the best I could do is I looked at Ryrie and it says, this may mean brought safely through childbirth, second, saved through the birth of a child, Jesus the Savior, or that a woman's greatest achievement is found in her devotion to her divinely ordained role, to help her husband, to bear children, and to follow a faithful, chaste way of life. That's as near as I can get to this question. So, I'm deferring to Mike as what is something that childbearing saves a woman from?

Okay, I think you've got to go back to Genesis 3, which is the curse that God put on Adam and Eve because they fell, and specifically To Eve, he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and your conception, and sorrow thou has brought forth children shall bring forth children. So there's a curse put on a woman as part of her involvement in the fall, the transgression, and also On the man, too, a man is going to, you know, there's going to be weeds and he's going to have to toil and sweat his whole life. But typical of God is that even in the midst of this sorrow or this penalty, there's grace in it somewhere. And I probably should have started with the man because Every man knows, should know, that he's going to have to work.

And there's a satisfaction in working that you don't get from any other thing you do. That if you have a job, no matter what it is, and you apply yourself and do a good job, you come home at night, You might be worn out, but you have a sense of satisfaction about, you know, this is what the Lord would have me do today, and there's a blessing here. It isn't a monetary blessing, it's a satisfaction. And that, in amongst the curse, is there's a grace.

It's the same thing with a woman. When she bears children, there's a sense of satisfaction, even though it's painful, and that she has been involved in what God has called her to do, to have children in that sense, it's an expectancy thing that any mom that I've ever talked to would go through that pain because at the end of the day, or the end of the birth, there's this child, a gift from God. So, how do I do say this? Maybe the best way to explain the opposite side, if you're a man that doesn't work, living off the government, you never have satisfaction about what God has called you to do, which is to work. If you are a woman that every time you get pregnant you go have an abortion, now you have no idea what it's like to be a mom.

What a blessing that is. So that's kind of the road I was going down. Yeah, that's right. I guess saying that something with the child saves a woman from, and I was trying to think what it saves her from, because she'll be saved in, and so I'm still trying to think what she's saved from or preserved from.

I think from just the lack of any kind of fulfillment because you're involved. on a regular basis with what God has called you to do. It's like a man who doesn't work, what am I saved from? So-so. I'm saved from the satisfaction. I don't get it. That's what I'm at. So Ingrid's one is with a woman who doesn't have children. And if a woman who doesn't have children isn't, how do I say this, eliminated, from the satisfaction because the rest of the verse talks about how she lives her life.

She's a person of faith, there's satisfaction in that. Maybe put it this way, doing it God's way, even though there's work involved and there's a curse involved and all of that kind of thing, there's still a satisfaction for you personally from God. based on, if you walk by faith as a believer, there's a great reward for that that sometimes you can't even describe. Yeah, like I said, I kind of went through it.

The only thing that kind of made sense with me was maybe what Ryrie said, she is preserved in childbearing, brought safely through childbirth, that God now, the curse was there, but he brings you safely through childbirth. That's what I thought here. If they continue in faith, love, holiness, and self-control. I thought that was more kind of what I thought maybe the aspect was that they're bringing safely through childbirth.

That the curse was there. Isn't that first birth that a woman has to be very scary to Let me ask Andrew if it was just like another day when she had her fourth child. It's Tuesday, okay, another child popped out. My only thought was the preserving through childbirth. The curse was there because of the transgression.

Now he's saying, the curse is there, but I'm going to preserve you through that. And especially if you continue in this. That's the most I could get out of this. He had a couple other ones, you know, saved through the birth of a child, Jesus Christ, and the woman's greatest achievement is found in her devotion to her divining ordained role. Yeah, but I thought it seemed like preserved in childbirth was kind of the, kind of if you diagram the sentence, it was preserved in the childbirthing. And it's like, he gave the curse, but you're preserved in that. And then, you know, in faith, love, It's a guarantee that your birth is going to go well?

No. I think you're preserved in it. It's going to be painful. You could have complications, but he's going to preserve you through that. Physically? I think so. That's more what I thought. What else would that mean? Well, it just means to me if you have a complication with the delivery, then you're going to doubt your salvation, maybe. But you're preserved through that. You survive, you do, whatever. Maybe you don't survive. Physically. You get to go home. Yeah, you get to go home. Actually, that's right. The curse is done.

I think I have more of an understanding of it from a man's viewpoint than a woman's. From a man's viewpoint, there is this tremendous satisfaction at 7 o'clock at night when you've really worked hard all day. and you're tired. Boy, that was quite a day. It could have been very painful.

Maybe you had victories, maybe you had failures, but you worked because the curse says you have to. You know, like you talk about slaying the dragons. Well, I slayed a few dragons today, and it wasn't the dragons, but God just sort of let me know I did what I wanted. I have God wanted you to do today, and there's satisfaction in that.

That's a perseverance that a person who's lazy and doesn't work never gets. So translating that to childbirth, the satisfaction through childbirth. I'm sorry? Translating that to the woman, which is being identified here, excuse me, the satisfaction through childbirth. I think so. I think so. I want to go back.

So what do you think this means, then, if preserved in childbearing? It can't mean a guarantee that you're going to survive the birth of your child. I mean, if somebody dies, I mean, that's great, you'll be in heaven, but it's not a guarantee that things are going to go well. So what does it mean?

I think what Mike said, which I don't know if I can repeat that, to rewind. So the satisfaction through childbirth. I guess when I looked at SOZO and the word, it's preserved. To me, I don't see how the satisfaction is linked there. Preserved means preserved. You survived. You were taken through that. There can be the satisfaction in it, but I think the root here is that it's preserved in childbearing.

What about I just throw this out there? There's no right or wrong answer here. Even the commentators, I went to several different commentators and it's like, oh man. Well, one of the commands that the Lord gave man was be fruitful and multiply. We talked about that too. That's part of it to be, that's what we are called to do. He's going to preserve women and childbirth. Well, it has a lot of meanings. You know, it says, yeah, there's a lot. See, that's what I think this verse means in childbearing. The curse is there, and you know, you have a child and you die, but he's preserving you through childbirth. Well, take the perseverance or the satisfaction out of it.

How many women would have a second child if that wasn't there? I remember going through the labor with Donna, just her and me, and she really worked hard. All women really do. But when John was born, there was a sense of, oh, wow. Well, there are others, though, I know. They're like, one and done. Never to do this again. Well, if they're not believers, absolutely. Well, no, those are believers. I know believers who are one and done. I mean, I struggle with this, and it's with the word.

I think preserved is better than saved, because I don't want any relationship to salvation in this verse. I don't think it brings that at all. But it's preserved. What does that mean, preserved in childbirth? The nearest, I agreed with the first one from Ryrie, which was brought safely through childbirth. He's now going to bring you, now it doesn't mean all the time, it doesn't mean there are complications, so I don't know how you apply this universally if somebody died in childbirth, but they go home if they're believers. And then it's conditional. Yes.

Well, I didn't even want to get into that part. See, this whole thing, this is so difficult of the verses, if they continue. And so if you don't continue in that, it's very difficult. And most of the commentators said this section is just very difficult to get what Paul was writing to them. And it is, it's very difficult. If they continue, what does that mean?

I think also, especially back in those days and everything, the chances of surviving a childbirth were very minimal. Right. Yeah, a lot higher percentage than both the child and the mother, the survival rate. But again, then you go to the thing, he's going to observe them.

Well, if they don't, what does this verse say? So it's an incredibly difficult section, and I went through several commentators trying to see, and all of them are left, right, center, over, don't know, this is difficult. So this may be one of those ones where we'll find out when we step into eternity. But there are other things we'll get into. And the if they continue is a very difficult section.

One thing I didn't check, which I probably should have, the word if. Yeah. Is it first class or third class conditional? Yeah. I think I looked that up. Let me see. Pull this up real quick. Or maybe you have that down lower. I know I looked it up. Maybe I have it in my notes down below. Do you have it? Yeah. Sorry, loading my Greek here. Seems to me it would be sins. Sins. Sorry, it's taking a while to load. I have all these 400 calendars.

Well, the next continue is a verb in aorist tense, which means fact in the active voice. But it's a subjective mood because you may or may not. May not. Yeah. So that's the sense, you know, or if. The not, you know, factual. It's conditional. So that's another thing. So they may or may not continue. So it's if they continue, well, what does that mean? It gets worse. It gets worse. And that's why I think I may have notes down lower where I tried to get into that, too. And it was like, oh, boy.

I think you have to look at the context of the chapter, though, as far as why women are OK being silent and not having authority, because They should receive their fulfillment, like Donna was saying, from Genesis 3 or whatever, through their families, through having babies. So it's more of a fulfillment thing instead of a physical safety or salvation thing. Well, I think the persevering is, to me, it's the saving through childbirth. I think you're preserved through that.

It's a very difficult thing. You can die at that. I think he preserves. That's one of the things he's saying. Now, whether it's 100 percent or all that, that throws it into clutches of questions, but the if-they-continue is the interesting part, is the if-they-continue.

So it's only the people who are in faith, love, holiness, and self-control. It just seems to me like if they have a spiritual perspective on their role, basically, they're okay with God's design for their family. Then they're preserved through childbirth. The ones who are not? They're fulfilled in this way. They don't have to be church leaders. They're fine with God's design of the family, being moms and raising their kids.

Which is why, actually, from last week's, this whole thing is about order in the church. Right, that's what I'm trying to find the context of that. Right, so you put it back in context. This is why women are supposed to be not teaching men, and their fulfillment is in childbirth instead of teaching men. Right, right. But it's kind of one, though, that the if-then is the hard part.

The word mental means it's a verb which means to remain. It isn't to begin. It means to stay or to abide in reference to a place. Don't leave it, to continue to be present, to be held or kept continually, which means It isn't the fact that the woman at that point has an option. She's already there. And what the encouragement is, is stay there. Stay in faith and stay in love, you know? Because we're talking about a Christian woman, we're not talking about, you know? Yeah. I finally got to it.

The if is Ian, so that's not the, so it is more if, if they, so. instead of the sense, it's conditional. It's if they do this. So, and that's why in the verb, for they continue is, yeah, aorist, active, subjunctive. So it's a, it's... Yeah, so it's, I think it's the word meno. Yeah.

I mean, it's a primary verb that says to stay. Another word, stay where you are. Yeah, to stay in a given place. So if you stay where you already are. Yeah. Yeah, it's to stay in a given place, state, relationship or expectancy. The King James, abide, continue, dwell, endure, be present, remain, stand, tarry. So it's conditional if you do this. So if you don't, I don't know what that means.

You won't be preserved in jail bearing. Maybe the satisfaction is... I think all the rest of those issues go away in your life. Right. You know, faith, love, all of that. Yeah, but the structure of the sentence, again, the women will be preserved through the bearing of children. That's kind of the subject if they continue meditation. So if they don't do that, will they be preserved in childbearing? If they don't do that.

Well, it's a subjective issue. Yeah, so only women who are, you know, in continuing faith, love, and sanctity with self-restraint. But you can say that thing about any Christian who doesn't walk by faith, then the rest of it you don't get. Right. Well, that's what I was thinking about was, I'm just bringing, it's hard, these are hard to decipher. If you take these only by itself, it's very difficult.

It's like elders. Do you meet every qualification of an elder? Oh, no, as a matter of fact, that's what the next lesson is. Yeah, exactly. And so that's, yes, I know that. That's why I bring it up, is that you don't make everything. So it doesn't mean that you can't be an elder because you don't meet 100% of these things. Right. And so I think in the same vein, this would be, you know, this is the preferred, is that you'll be preserved in childbearing if you do this. This is where you should be. And back to what Inger said is the order. In ordering the church for women to be, what do you think if they're in faith? Faith, love, sanctity with self-restraint. How do you think the church operates? Much better. So, again, very difficult to try and parse out these different aspects in this. So, let me see. Oh, so I said, what is the other aspect being brought out here besides Eve's or the woman's transgression?

It said childbearing. And this is, I think, from your notes, Paul taking the common sense view that childbearing rather than public teaching or the direction of affairs is a woman's primary function, duty and privilege, privilege and dignity. He reminds Timothy and his readers that there was another aspect of the story in Genesis besides the woman's taking the initiative in the transgression. The pains of childbirth were her sentence. Yet in undergoing these, she finds her salvation. She shall be saved in childbearing, or she'll be preserved.

So again, it's the order aspect of it. Then, again, kind of on question 8, how would you briefly state the logic here? So, again, I think from Mike's notes, to briefly state the matter, the interpretation is as follows. Just as hard labor is a man's salvation in a set of circumstances and surrounding, that without it would cause him to deteriorate instead of making progress in character.

So, the pains of childbirth become the salvation of the woman or person. preservation, and in the same sense and for the same purpose, that of enabling the woman to adjust herself in circumstances and surroundings so that she too will do the same. So it's the aspect of satisfaction for a man in work, satisfaction in childbearing for a woman. Thoughts? I want to hear from the moms. Do you agree with that? How many moms we got? I would, yeah. We're satisfied by having children, yeah.

I got a question, though. You know, man, he is, well, Adam would be saying, where was the woman you give? Well, what can the woman do? I'm pregnant. Oh, well, it's the man you give. No, he was blaming God, not the woman. Right. Yeah, he was blaming God. He wasn't blaming the woman. He can go to God. You gave me this woman. He was pointing at God when he said that.

Well, I was going to get into this, but I think it's going to have some discussion also. So we'll do 9 and 10 next week, because I think I have a disagreement with Mike on 9. So we don't want to start that now. So we'll have that next week. All right, let's pray. Heavenly Father, we thank you. We thank you again.

You know what these verses mean, and we hopefully have parsed them out and with some understanding of what you have for us through Paul's teaching to Timothy and how they run the Church at Ephesus. So Father, we thank you again that you are a God of order, and this was meant to have order in a local body. And so we understand that you're giving guidance here, on how to run the local church, and so it is not salvation is due to anything by continuing in faith, sanctity, all the different things. Salvation is in personal knowledge of your son, his death, burial, and resurrection for us, and salvation through the finished work of your son on the cross. We thank you again just for your word and just pray for the Holy Spirit for the interpretation of these. And we just give you thanks for all that you do for us moment by moment. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.