First Timothy lesson 14 end, 15 begin (24:00)

Amen. All right, we are on lesson 14. I'll read just the verses. This is 2 Timothy class. We're in chapter 2, and the verses are 13 through 15. 13, 14, and 15. So we've gone through quite a bit of what this whole section is. I read the whole section in 1 Timothy 2, excuse me. I read the whole chapter, which is organization in the church. So this is, again, just reiterating.

This is Paul giving pastoral lessons to Timothy. We also went through Titus. This is the same one. Timothy is being told by Paul how to run the church at Ephesus. So he's giving a lot of direction here on how to run a church or how to run the church bodies in Ephesus. So I went through a lot of it. It's about the first part, just a lot of information on prayer and God's desire for everyone to come to know the Lord.

And then he got into the sections now in verse 8, basically, therefore I want men in every place to pray, lifting up holy hands without wrath and dissension. Then he steps into section 9, which is another one, likewise, so in a similar manner, I want women. And then this goes through several different things, and we get into verses 13, 14, and 15, which this lesson covers.

For it was Adam who was first created, and it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived fell into transgression. But women will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint.

Now that's the NASB version. There are a couple of different words on saved, and the King James has saved rather than preserved. I like that version better because it doesn't have anything to do with salvation. If you say saved, you can have the implication that, oh, maybe this is about a salvation. So I like the NASB translation that says preserved rather than saved in that verse. So, we've gone through questions 1 through 8. We're in question 9. This is what I said starting last week. I confess, I don't agree with Mike on this one. So, we have to start off really well on this question.

Notice the word, they, in verse 15. What does it tell us? So, if you knew the New American Standard, nevertheless, she will be, well, this is the King James, I think, nevertheless, she will be saved and challenged if they continue in faith, love, holiness, and holiness with self-control.

So, Mike's notes, as to the plural pronoun, they, the same authority says, the subject of continue is usually taken to be women. But in as much as Paul has been speaking of women in the marriage relation, it seems better to understand the plural of the woman and her husband. So, in this saying, the they means men and women. What are your thoughts? Does it refer to men and women in this section? Nevertheless, she will be saved in childbearing if they continue in love and holiness with self-control. It sounds like it's referring to the women particularly, not so much to the men. Okay. Others?

I agree with Ron. Is your mic on? Well, I want this on the record. Oh, I agree with Rob. Any others? Well, I don't think men bear children. Yeah, that's what I was gonna get this cuz I I'm in the camp that it's it this is in a section on women in Whatever commentary you hadn't it brought the men and women in and you think that today returned refers to men and women in this one, so The podium is yours. Do you have your mic on? Yeah, okay? I don't know I say this I think I think I What I was thinking about was in the previous question where we talked about the same thing about the logic here in that a man, I'll read it to you. I forget my notes if I don't read them.

Just as hard labor is a man's salvation, but it really isn't, it's perseverance. in a set of circumstances and surroundings that, without it, would cause him to deteriorate instead of make progress in character. We talked about that last week. And then, so the pains of childbirth become, again, the word salvation probably shouldn't be there, perseverance of the woman. and in the same sense and for the same purpose, that of enabling a woman to adjust herself in her circumstances and surroundings so that she too will do the same.

In other words, she'd be blessed in the trial. Okay? So, that being said, I thought, well, the they does... I'm not going to stand and die over this. But I thought, you know, really, He's talking about what the curse, within the curse that God put on Adam and Eve in the garden, in that curse was perseverance and a preservation that typical of God that even in a curse he's gracious. And so that's why I thought that they meant both of them because he isn't going to preserve or persevere one and not the other.

Yeah, and I kind of went back and I dissected this a lot, even the answer in question 8. I kind of was like, how do you draw that in there? Because, you know, in verse 4, 10, 9, 8, whatever, in verse 8, This section, okay, the first one through seven is about God's desire and kind of order in the church, pray for leaders, all this. Then you get to verse eight, therefore I want men in every place to pray, lifting up holy hands without wrath and dispension. And it wasn't, and so I kind of dissected, it wasn't where, I was seeing, trying to find out where you pulled in the laborer, you know, that man's labor, and we were talking last week about how man is satisfied in work and all that. I can see that from the Genesis perspective, but in here, He's mentioning about men, you're to pray, lifting up holy hands without wrath and dissension. So, I don't see where the labor part is coming in here and how it relates back to the Genesis part.

So, because then there's a clear break. It says, likewise, I want women. And this whole section is about women. And I think this is solely for women that he said. So, I mean, that's where it is. And even on question eight, I was a little bit, I went back and forth on this whether I kind of agreed or disagreed or kind of in the middle, I don't know. the logic, trying to bring back men's hard labor in here. How did that go?

Because the first part was about likewise men pray, and then he's talking about women and adoring. So it separated clearly there. If you go back to the Genesis part, I can see that, because he brings that back in, because he says in Adam and Eve, Eve was deceived, and then Adam. And we went into the words about deceived. that Eve was completely deceived by the serpent and where Adam, basically a loving husband, followed along and was deceived.

He was brought along by his wife. So that's the point there. So I don't know about bringing back the whole you know, Adam and Eve and the curse, so to speak. Man will have to work forever and women will have childbirth. But I can kind of see that because he did bring back Adam and Eve in this section and now he's saying about childbirth, which was the curse. And what I was after here was the fact that the two curses, one for a man, one for a woman in Genesis, within those curses, is God's grace.

And so, I think that here talking about a woman and childbearing and the pain associated with it really is gracious, and he tries to explain how it is gracious, because If you're like me, if I hurt, that's all I know, I hurt. It's like the same lesson we learn with trials and suffering. If we see trials and suffering as something from the Lord, it's really a blessing to have them because what it produces in the end. When I think of childbirth, we had that poll last week with the two moms, that were here last week, in that having children is a blessing, and that through the pain of childbirth, the blessing of a child. And so there is grace and all the things expressed. That was my point. Going back to the question, I really think the they and here is about women. That likewise was men, and now this whole section is about women.

So can we have a vote? I think you lost. I think I lost. I think you lost, but that's OK. I think you're right. But the principle stands true for both. That's a good way to put it, yeah. Yeah, it can. I mean, you can apply that, but specifically here, I think he's talking about women. You can extract the same principle if you go back to Genesis and that. But here he's specifically talking about women. OK, got through that fairly safely. So next one, or the last one, question 10, then, JD, you can take over here.

Discuss the last three words in verse 15, faith, love, holiness, with soberness. So faith is the agape, hegemos, and sophrosyne, whatever. Horrible in the Greek pronunciation. So, from the King James, it's verse 15. Notwithstanding, she shall be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith and charity and holiness and sobriety. The NASB translated it fairly differently. just the words used, but women will be preserved instead of saved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith, love, sanctity, with self-restraint. So, you know, again, charity is love in the New King James love. in the NASB, holiness in the King James, sanctity in the NASB, sobriety in the King James, and self-restraint in the NASB. So, a little bit of differences in the wording or the translations, but we can go back to the Greek.

But, of course, what is your definition of faith? Give me your definition of faith. It's one of the keys of the Christian life. What does faith mean? Trusting God. Trusting God, okay. Others? What you believe. What you believe. There's faith in what you believe, but faith is what? Any others? Trust. Back at work. Any others? Well, of course, if you can let me do that. I have to go to where?

Webster's. Webster's. Webster's first. So Webster's actually had, I think, fairly good ones. Belief and trust. This is the second definition. Belief and trust and loyalty to God. Second is belief in traditional doctrines of a religion. Firm belief in something for which there is no proof.

Complete trust, Cheryl. Something that is believed especially with strong conviction, especially a system of religious beliefs, the Protestant faith. So again, I know that was an interesting one. So complete trust, Cheryl. Belief and trust and loyalty to God. Similar. So, a firm belief in something which there is no proof.

It's kind of an interesting one. Is that what our faith is? No. No, we've got reality. So I think we're talking about personal faith here rather than... Yes. Yeah, this is personal faith. We went into the depth of the faith, the personal faith in our faith class, but this is, I believe, personal faith.

So, the Greek word here is pistis, which means to win over, persuade, faith. Subjectively meaning firm persuasion, conviction, belief in the truth, veracity, reality, or faithfulness, though rare. Objectively meaning that which is believed, doctrine, the received articles of faith. And what Zodiac has said for this specific meaning of the Christian profession, the faith professed. So this is belief, trust in what God has said. So trust, belief in what God has told us or God has laid out for us. So that's faith. It's trust in God, trust in what he said, trust in what he's doing.

So, next one, what is your definition of love or charity as expressed in this verse? What would that be? Is this, the word's agape, and there's different, I think four different or whatever definitions or meanings of agape. Is this God's love? Context of this verse. It's, I think it's indicative of God's love, but it also is, I think, what was that definition? That agape is that the lover finds great value in the object loved. And it has no bearing on whether the object loved is receptive or deserves that or anything like that, that the lover is the one who is the initiator of the love action. And so, it's not like Phileo, you know, I love you if you love me. It's not like that. And so, it is like God's love, but every believer should operate that way. Yeah.

I guess the distinction is, what I was trying to get is, God's love, agape, that's God's love to us. That's one of the definitions. God's eternal love for us. Is this what's being expressed here, or is this something different? And I think it's difference. This is saying our love to other people is kind of what Mike was getting to.

This isn't God's love, because it's saying about if you women in childbirth, you're preserved if you continue in love. It wouldn't make sense if that's if you continue receiving God's love. That's going to be all the time anyway. So this is outward, your love to others. So it's not God's love to us, it's us expressing love to others. I would also say that it's indicative of the life that we have, because people in the flesh can't love like this.

It's a manifestation of Christ's love through us, is a better definition, yeah. Oh, I was just going to say, I love you, Courtney. And I love you too, Mike. Oh, so yeah, the Greek word agape presodes for this one, love, affection, or benevolence, specifically a love feast.

This is not God's love towards us, but us loving others. So it's the outward expression of Christ's love to others. So that would be more of an action word. Yeah, it's really our manifestation. Yeah, if you continue in love, if you continue loving the brethren, you love others. That's what's being expressed here. Not that you're receiving God's love, but this is the outward expression of Christ's life through us. So what is the definition of holiness or sanctity? What is sanctity or holiness? What was that?

Whisper. Set-apart? Set-apart is sanctify or sanctification. Yeah, the Greek word is, man, I can't, hagios. Hagios. Hagios is the base, but it's hagios, this one. To sanctify or sanctification translates as holiness. I think a better interpretation is set-apart. So if you're set-apart for God, that you remain, the action is you're set-apart for God. Remember, you're preserved in childbirth. or through childbirth and these if you continue in these is is what the in the verse we're looking at so last one is sobriety or self-restraint what does that mean you're just you're not drinking today derby says discretion discretion that could be good so it doesn't mean sobriety as in you're not drinking you're what does sobriety mean Sober.

Sobriety. Sobriety, you can't use a definition now, it drives me nuts. What do we got? Sobriety. State of mind. State of mind. I think that's good. And with kind of a caveat to that, but others, sobriety. No more definitions. Self-restraint. Self-restraint, yes. Yep, that's one. Yeah, I was thinking self-control. Self-control, right. So it's... It also means soundness of mind. Yes. And I can't pronounce the word.

Sophrasine. Zodiatis defines it as this, of sound mind temperate, or sound mind sane. Strong's G, 4997. Sophrasune. That's how you pronounce it. Thank you. Sound mind, sane, temperate, sober-mindedness, moderation of desires, passions, and conduct. I thought that was an interesting one. Moderation of desires, passions, and conduct. So I think in this, sane, sober mind, moderation of desires, passions, and conduct. I think that was good. I like this sometimes.

We make all these definitions and we chop it up into these little pieces, but what does it mean at the end of the day? I put all these definitions back into the verse with our expanded definitions. with these definitions in verse 15, but women will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in their firm belief in the truth and in their love for others and being set apart for God with soberness of mind and moderation of conduct. How does that sound?

Yeah. Did we talk about what kind of an if that was? Yeah, the sense. And I think it was, but then when I looked at it, let me see if I can pull that up here. Yeah, hold up. So this is Ian, which is speaking. perhaps, if perhaps. Greek conjunction, subordinating conditional. It's conditional.

So it's more if, if than since, which is kind of interesting. I was thinking, you know, Macaulay was talking about the different ifs, and there was one of them that was an if, but it probably will. Yeah, and maybe that's, that may be this one. mood in that is that it's a Greek conjunction, if, subordinate, but it's conditional, which to me means more it's an if, but whether it has probability. I don't have an expanded one on that. It may be if, but probable. I don't know if that So it was because it was kind of interesting. I think we talked about that last week and I couldn't get my PC study Bible up in time.

But it's more an if than a since, since you continue in, which is kind of interesting. But maybe your definition that it's an if but probable. It's conditional. So if you don't do that, then you won't be preserved in childbearing? I know, that's the thing. Yeah, that's interesting. I don't know what that means. Well, it's just like we had that discussion last week.

Even the commentators I looked up, I looked up several of them, and it was like, these are extremely hard verses to really pull. You'll be preserved and shout, well, brought up last week, what if you know that? What if you haven't? And there are a lot of what ifs in here. And it's like, I don't know the answer. And a lot of the commentators were all over the board. So this adds complexity to it.

From here, it says an if. It's a conditional. So what does that mean? Strong says the same thing. He says a conditional particle, which makes reference to time and to experience introducing something future, but not determining before the event whether it is certainly to take place. So what he's saying is it is an if. Yeah. I mean, here it seems like it's an if.

If they continue, you'll be preserved in childbearing. So now let's go back to the childbearing part. Yikes. So yeah. These are very difficult verses to expound and assert with certainty. So anything else? Otherwise, I will turn that over. You have about 15 minutes. J.D.? Does anybody have their notes? Or their questions? Yeah.

Lesson 15? You know, it's interesting, this word, if, and they give references where it is. All of them are in Matthew. In Matthew, yeah. There's like 30 of them. Yeah. On to Chapter 3, Lesson 15. We're going to get through probably the first question. Maybe the second. We'll get it started anyway.

Someone want to read verses 1 through 3 from chapter 3? The word is faithful. If anyone aspires to exercise oversight, he desires a good work. The overseer then must be irreproachable, husband of one wife, sober, discreet, decorous, hospitable, apt to teach, not given to excess from wine, not a striker, but mild, not addicted to contention, not found, not fond of money.

Okay. So in the NASB, it uses the term, it is a trustworthy statement. What do you think Paul's talking about? Why does he use that terminology? That's the first question. What does the phrase, it is a trustworthy statement, mean? That the word is faithful. OK. What's interesting that that word is pistos, which is the same word that Courtney was just talking about. And so when we define what is faith, we're using that word pistos in a different context. But Paul says that this is the statement I'm about to tell you, the really trustworthy thing.

It's a trustworthy doctrine of the church. So we've moved from how the church prays and how women are to fit into the order of the church, and now we're moving into church organization. And he says, right at the get-go, this is a trustworthy statement. This terminology, this phrase, actually appears five times in the pastoral epistles.

And it's in 1 Timothy 1.15 that we read previously.

Here in 3.1, we'll see it in 4.9, we'll see it in 2 Timothy 2.11, and we saw it in Titus 3.8. So why does Paul use this term, repetitively?

Repetitively. I think it's a marker. It's a marker in his writing to highlight something that's very important. The idea is that this is already accepted, already known, and it's trustworthy. And I'm going to tell you again. He's going to do that again. He did it in Titus, he's going to do it again.

And in the context of 1 Timothy, I think that he's addressing false teaching. right, as it represents, or as false teaching has come into the organization of the church, the order of church, and brought chaos, he is emphasizing the reliability that what he is saying about the order of the church and how it functions is trustworthy, it's faithful, right?

So these aren't Paul's personal preferences. These are handed to Paul and he is communicating them to the church, and he's telling those believers there in the church that this is an authoritative standard for how the church functions, and it's trustworthy. I think, kind of, you know, when I read these, when I see this, I got a sub-suit, don't doubt me. Yeah, don't doubt me.

This is God's word. It may be controversial, it may be tough in various places where he uses it, but don't doubt me in this. It's God's direction. Yeah, and he says things like, I'm telling you the truth. And this is another one of those instances where he's making clear that this is an authoritative standard. This isn't up for debate. This is to be believed. This is pistos. Go ahead, Mike.

The other word I thought about is that you could say this is a commonly known principle. Everybody in the church knows. And then what follows is the laying out of the principle. And I think in 1st and 2nd Thessalonians, and certainly in Timothy and Titus, this principle is laid out several times. And it's the same every time. What's the key to learning? Repetition, that's what he's doing. He's saying, we know this. Don't doubt me on this. The truth is this. This is the authoritative standard. So what is the standard? Question number two.

The question is, the word overseer sometimes is referred to as bishop or elder. What is the job description of this person? So let's start with the word. What is the word episcopal, I mean, episcopal, if I can say it right. What does it mean? We use the word elder here. We don't use the word bishop, we could, it would be biblically sound. It just so happens that other religious organizations have tended to grab that term and distorted it. However, the word bishop could be used here, elder, overseer, and that's probably your biggest clue as to what this word means. The verbal form, episcopeo, to look over, to oversee, to superintend, to exercise oversight or care over.

I like that last part, to exercise care over. Sotiades talks about it as the act of visiting or being visited, inspected, provide covering for. I really like that one. They provide cover for the flock. got a real shepherd mentality with the elder word here. And what do you think about ... how would you ... Zodiates talks about the act of visiting or being visited. What do you think that means? Well, the word came originally from secular life. Referring to the foreman of a construction crew or the supervisor of a building construction, for example. So what does a supervisor do?

What did Phil do for years and years and years and years? He's a leader. He's a leader. He makes sure the job gets done. He makes sure the job gets done. And they're usually experienced. Those that he, he's overseeing. So it doesn't mean that, uh, those that he's overseeing are not potentially experts in their field. It just means that he is the superintendent. He's the one that organizes, he's the one that protects and ensure safety and provides what they need. Right. I would say too, he also, uh, is responsible for, um, the attitude and the dedication of the people who work for him. That's a big part of the job.

Yeah, Hattie's been studying leadership a lot lately. And leadership has a lot to do with helping those that don't know necessarily how to do something, accomplish something. That they may have an idea, but they don't know how to say it. Helping them move through that thinking. and a positive attitude, right?

These are all aspects of leadership, but in this particular context, I'll give you a definition from Thayer. He defines the word as an overseer, a man charged with the duty of seeing that things to be done by others are done rightly. Any curator, guardian, or superintendent. I like the word guardian. It's a pretty good word, too. So what are, what do you think What do you think the church got off with the role of eldership within Christianity? What are some of the ways that this word and this role has been distorted? I'll tell you my opinion.

I think one of the ways is in this, from the Brethren perspective too, was it's plural. And I think what a lot of times now is there's a single man who is the passer or the one guy. And what this says is, it's plural. There has to be multiple. Yeah, and so there isn't the one guy who, you know, actually we're just talking about a church body and Parker, very large group that their main guy. got a bad deal and he's gone, and it's just one guy. That's the problem. I think it says, at least always in this, it's plurality here, which I like. Yeah. We're not touching on the plurality, but it's definitely biblical. It is biblical, Mike.

I think way back when we were studying 1 Corinthians, there were the problem with certain evils within the church, and Paul was giving them instructions within the church of how to deal with them. What happened, though, right there in the early church was that some churches thought that what they really needed to control everything was a group of administrators who would take care of things for a bunch of churches, you know, clergy. That was the beginning of clergy. And the problem with that is Most clergy people don't have a heart for the people that they're supposed to be. They're not a shepherd, you know.

And that's what was unique about Paul's instructions in 1 Corinthians, was this is something in these, whatever it is, it is handled within the local church, and you have people there that the Spirit of God raised up to take care of these things. And if you're an overseer, an elder, you take care of it. You don't need somebody from Rome coming to tell you what to do. Yeah, that's similar to what I was thinking, is that oftentimes this role is turned into a business role. uh... an administrative role of or it's it's taken and put into the term pastor and then you repeat your name on the door and you're the guy it is plural just to say that it is here we're dot defining the fact that this is a trustworthy statement the overseer does care and most importantly cares about the spiritual life of the local church that's really what his administration, and superintending, and oversight, and guardianship, and all those things that we talked about, the visiting, the act of being visited, why would you, why would he want to visit and spend time with you? Because he's looking out for your spiritual life, right?

All right, well I'm at time. So we'll pick up, I won't be here next week, but Mike or someone will pick up question number three, and we'll talk about what would describe the desire for this office. So the word desire is gonna be key in this next step.

Let's pray. Father, we thank you for your words here in First Timothy, for the way that you have, provided order and direction for the way that the church works. And we just pray that we would continue to honor that, that we would learn from our elders, and that we would grow in our spiritual journeys together under the oversight of the leadership that you put in place. We just pray for a great next lesson. We pray for your Holy Spirit would illuminate us to your truths in that. And it is in your name we pray. Amen.